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Do you believe in free will?
Yes, because I believe the world is NOT deterministic. 18%  18%  [ 2 ]
Yes, and it doesn't matter if the world is deterministic. 27%  27%  [ 3 ]
No, because I believe the world is deterministic. 9%  9%  [ 1 ]
No, and it doesn't matter if the world is deterministic. 9%  9%  [ 1 ]
Other (explain yourself!) 36%  36%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 11

P. Zombie
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28 Oct 2024, 11:17 am

Asking people about free will is my idea of small talk. In a perfect world I would get to know anyone by asking “do you believe in free will?”. Then, they might say “it depends on whether the world is deterministic”, and I might say “great, I disagree!”, and we could have a whole-hearted argument.

First, I could ask politely if one isn’t conflating determinism with fatalism (like, for instance, the show “Devs” do, imho). In the famous story, Oedipus is fated to kill his father and marry his mother, and whatever he does, it doesn’t change his destiny. His story is about fatalism, not about determinism. Determinism works just the other way around – we are in certain conditions, BECAUSE we acted in some way earlier, and not IN SPITE OF our actions.

Among many “free will experts”, a common view is that the question of determinism and the question of free will are independent. The first one is for scientists and the second for philosophers (so we can be sure, we’ll never get the answer, as they didn’t give a single answer in the last 2500 years). So called compatibilists believe that free will is compatible with determinism, e.g. because it allows our actions to be caused by our beliefs and desires. Incompatibilists disagree, because they think a possibility to act in different ways is required to have free will. Then, compatibilists say determinism is compatible with the everyday notion of different possibilities, and then they fight. Incompatibilists seem to have total dominance in popular culture and it’s annoying, but I get it – compatibilism doesn’t have much potential for drama.

Obviously, there are always sceptics lurking in the corner, claiming that free will just can’t exist, because both determined causes and random causes are not free. There are people who believe in some other form of causation – not determined and not random – but I don’t get them and it seems too magical to me.

Also, I have a thought experiment. Let’s pretend I’m a complicated person and have three culinary desires at once! I want to eat a sandwich or a pancake or a donut, and don’t know which one to choose. What to do, what to do? My final decision depends on probabilities of each choice. In a fully deterministic world, one choice has a chance of 100% (let’s say it’s a pancake) and others have 0%. I don’t know it, because I’m stupid. In a fully chaotic world, the probabilities are equal (there’s also a probability that I’ll explode before I manage to eat, or that the whole world will explode). In a “middle way” world the chances are, let’s say, 70% for a pancake, 20% for a sandwich and 10% for a donut, or any other probabilities between totally equal and “one takes it all”. In all worlds the final decision is a combination of causes-effects and random selections. Why would any of them guarantee more free will than the others?

So… what do you think about free will?


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28 Oct 2024, 12:10 pm

An excellent post (and nice to have a philosophy discussion).

I instinctively say that I'm a determinist non-compatibilist, and that if the world isn't deterministic (it seems not to be on the quantum scale, but it's not clear to me that's actually relevant) then I am a sceptic who doesn't believe random decisions are truly free. I also think that our universe is not just deterministic, but fatalistic, and that if we rewound the tape we'd get the same outcomes.

On balance, though, I think it makes sense to say that human actions, regardless of whether they are deterministic, are the result of will. This will might be deterministic, and illusionary, but it is free enough to meet my definition.



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28 Oct 2024, 12:14 pm

Deep


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28 Oct 2024, 12:55 pm

More like I believe in the paradox of it.

That it is both chaotic and orderly, significant and insignificant depending on one's own point of reference.

If everything is determined or designed by something, factors that had happened long before you're even born to set up a moment of those choices for you by something else before you and before them, who is to say the things you're consciously deciding at that present, past or future is determined by your will alone or is predetermined by said source that exists long before you and those before you?


Is the expression of your present a reaction of your past or intent over future?
Is your intent of your future a reaction of your past? Etc.


Here's an example;
If shrimps weren't evolved the way they did, what would the biodiversity look like?
In another world where that's true, it might not be as different from we are now.
Yet in another world that's also true, might ended up with a completely radical change of the entire world.

If shrimps weren't evolved the way they did, what would the odds that it can replace shrimp allergy with instead?

And would a concept or an event of a shrimp allergy exists without humans evolving with a completely different immune response system, therefore this reality's one individual's knowledge, and experiences and choice of not choosing shrimp due to having an allergy preventing an immune response reaction wouldn't even taken place?


Why would that even matter? :lol:
In another scale, it's by design. In another scale, it's just luck.
In another scale, it's predetermined. In another scale, it's determined.


Some would determine that it's free will. Because they're focused on the individual and subjectivity and also the now and the conscious intent and will.
That working hard works and makes sense, that there is a logic within the causes and effects, aware of how or what is within control.

Some would care that it isn't.
Because they're looking at science and stats; like the dimension of time even actually exists like the color magenta or how we're even solid in the first place.
Or how that one trait is one detriment to the majority of the individuals well being and choices in life. Or even the whole subconsciously making decisions long before the conscious even perceived it.

Some don't because it is. Because it's all about making a meaning to all of this. That maybe what they do means something.
Some don't because it isn't. Because it just doesn't make sense. Maybe they'll just enjoy this ride we call living and existing.


Me? :lol:
My answer is "Why not?"


I could care less what type of free will it is referring to.

I'd definately want to be free from several constraints of my upbringing and biology as a human.
Some have that choice, some don't. Only I'll find out if that's possible for me or not.

Oh sure, there's wanting to be free of constraints over something like, say, physics -- but what about the laws of cause and effect?
Then there's plenty of laws to master within that scale within an individual's position and status.


Oh, sure, technically, I can very much just get up from my bed and smuggle myself into another country illegally.
What are the odds that I'll succeed?
And why even do that for???

Technically I have that choice, physically and objectively.
But statistically, I'm skeptical with how everything it set up to be like I literally have no reason to, like how I don't have the know hows and resources.
Lawfully, I shouldn't.


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28 Oct 2024, 1:43 pm

The very moment I start thinking about the question of free will is the very moment I stop thinking about it

It's not because it's boring or anything like that because it's not it's fascinating but it's just because it feels like my brain curls itself up into a little ball and just refuses to go there


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28 Oct 2024, 3:22 pm

I think you can choose what you want, but you can't choose what to want.


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28 Oct 2024, 3:27 pm

Eat 'em all... Let guts sort them out.



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28 Oct 2024, 3:43 pm

BillyTree wrote:
I think you can choose what you want, but you can't choose what to want.


Yeah and that's where my brain gives up on it


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28 Oct 2024, 3:49 pm

Einstein did not believe, but ironically also believed that he had to behave as though he believed in it.



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28 Oct 2024, 10:37 pm

babybird wrote:
The very moment I start thinking about the question of free will is the very moment I stop thinking about it

It's not because it's boring or anything like that because it's not it's fascinating but it's just because it feels like my brain curls itself up into a little ball and just refuses to go there

Because it is very overwhelming.

More than the wall of texts, several times over and having to translate a language that do not exists into English text. :lol:


It's not about brain power.
It's about the practice to make sense of the perceived chaos. And the practice gave me habits and patterns to make sense out of it.

Me being a pattern seeking with nonverbal strengths autistic helps.
Me being a concrete thinking autistic who hates words do not help.


Me? I was forced to practice. :lol:
It's not totally my choice, it's a reaction of whatever I gotten from whatever reason.

And it was a hard and risky investment option long before I found or even had a concept that it's actually a hard and risky investment.

Had I decided to continue denying or chose the same reactions of many by choosing to since childhood, I probably been dead by not-really-my-freewill-yet-it-looked-like-it but it is very much because my reactive brain's self preservation mechanism that I'm hell sure did not put it in there has limits.



Sometimes, I thought, if I never had to do the work and the practice...

I'm very sure trying to think over the concept of free will and predeterminism would be very simplistic as eithers and ors instead of the paradox it is.

Or just believe what other people around me believe; like the debate and contradiction of free will around the concepts of religion.

Or an incomprehensible mess that cannot be worded.

And in this reality, I'm too used to the incomprehensible mess that cannot worded and it's very much one of the reasons why I hate words.
Because I'm forced to confront things that cannot be wordrd instead of just playing this game of living and existing "as intended" (or as most people would play it, and my kind of autism gave it a completely another layer) with how language is so limited...


And the very fact that I utterly hate the sensation of suddenly shutting off and stop thinking about it because it's too complex or incomprehensible.

Because that sensation, to me, is this stupid gaps that I cannot describe well and I really hate that it exists.
It's a major disruptor for me in long term so far and I really, really hate it because it implies a major block that's against my will.

Thus me saying stuff in layman than fancy wording, thus me going with explain me like I'm 5, thus me demystifying crap...


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P. Zombie
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29 Oct 2024, 11:38 am

The_Walrus wrote:
An excellent post (and nice to have a philosophy discussion).

Thanks! Thought it would be nice to have something besides politics here :wink:

The_Walrus wrote:
I also think that our universe is not just deterministic, but fatalistic, and that if we rewound the tape we'd get the same outcomes.

I think, to distinguish determinism from fatalism, we must look not only at the actual world (universe), but at potentially possible worlds. Both in deterministic and fatalistic worlds, we'd get the same outcomes if we rewound the tape. But in a deterministic world, we'd get different outcomes if initial conditions were changed, and in a fatalistic world some important events would be always the same, no matter the initial conditions. But then, what a difference does it make in practice? :|

Edna3362 wrote:
who is to say the things you're consciously deciding at that present, past or future is determined by your will alone or is predetermined by said source that exists long before you and those before you?

I don't think it's actually a paradox. The things I'm deciding are BOTH determined by my will AND predetermined by various sources. I mean, my will (i.e. my desires and beliefs) is caused by neurology, upbringing, culture etc. and then causes my actions. Which brings us to the next post:

BillyTree wrote:
I think you can choose what you want, but you can't choose what to want.

To choose what to want, I'd must have some higher-order beliefs and desires, on which I could base my choice. Actually, situations like that aren't so uncommon, e.g. I have a desire to eat this donut (it's my will), but I also have a second-order desire not to be fat, which means I have also a desire NOT to eat a donut. It would be nice if this second desire cancelled the first one, not just existed along it, but still - I have a desire which was chosen by me. One can argue that having free will means being able to act on desires which were chosen by second-order desires or beliefs. Or one can notice that second-order desires are not chosen (or, even if they are, the third-order are not, and so on), so will can't be free. Still, it's not a paradox, but a question of which definition better fits one's intuitions.

Edna3362 wrote:
I'd definately want to be free from several constraints of my upbringing and biology as a human.
Some have that choice, some don't. Only I'll find out if that's possible for me or not.

Oh sure, there's wanting to be free of constraints over something like, say, physics -- but what about the laws of cause and effect?

Hmmm... One can think of different forms of constraints from the obviously external ones (I don't have free will if someone with a gun is forcing me to do things), then not-so-external (upbringing, some neuro-psycho-whatever factors - it would be nice to be free of them, but then it wouldn't be the same 'me' anymore), to the most fundamental ones (Being free of laws of physics? What it actually means? That person / thing which were free, certainly wouldn't be me).

auntblabby wrote:
Einstein did not believe, but ironically also believed that he had to behave as though he believed in it.

Yeah, cause how would we behave if we wouldn't believe in it? Lie down and do nothing? It would still feel as a free choice. So, one way to look at it is that even if there is no free will, it's not possible to escape the illusion of free will. The other way would be to ask - isn't this "illusion" exactly what free will actually is? If it's impossible to imagine a society in which people don't feel it, don't attribute it to some members and not the others, and hence don't treat some, but not others, as morally resposible, then how can we call it an illusion? So maybe, the role of philosophers is to analyze and formalize how we use this (often unspoken) notion of free will in everyday life?

babybird wrote:
The very moment I start thinking about the question of free will is the very moment I stop thinking about it

:D Yeah, I had to have some philosophy courses at uni to figure out it's actually possible to think about this stuff in other way than "QUANTA! QUANTA SOLVE EVERYTHING!". But still, I'm always close to a mental blockade, when brain says "stop, let's play some game instead".

Carbonhalo wrote:
Eat 'em all... Let guts sort them out.

Yet another victory of hunger over metaphysics


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Edna3362
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29 Oct 2024, 12:56 pm

P. Zombie wrote:
Edna3362 wrote:
who is to say the things you're consciously deciding at that present, past or future is determined by your will alone or is predetermined by said source that exists long before you and those before you?

I don't think it's actually a paradox. The things I'm deciding are BOTH determined by my will AND predetermined by various sources. I mean, my will (i.e. my desires and beliefs) is caused by neurology, upbringing, culture etc. and then causes my actions.

On a way smaller and individualized scale, yeah -- because the point of reference is you.
Even that specific part of post is referring to a 'you', not the entire post.

The 'you' can be anyone. As anyone "can decide" upon whatever choices presented to them.
But does that apply for everyone?


And everything in all times and all places?
:twisted: This thread isn't even specified that it's all about human free will, let alone just particular individuals.



Would will itself disappear when all humans disappear though? Some would believe not because all creatures have will.

Would will itself disappear where there no form of observer, let alone an actor or an agent of any force that exists in this universe anymore?


Overall, my thoughts about free will and will itself isn't limited to myself, to other people and humans in general.

Or even living creatures, their situation and circumstances, their instincts, needs, self preservation, response or reaction to whatever stimuli.

Some do, some don't.
Yes, things that are determined and predetermined can "coexist" because that's how it is from anyone's perspective -- and yes I'm aware that's not a paradox because having two factors is not the paradox or even the point.

But in a different scale, it's by design, and in another it's not.
Look in another way it is, yet in another way it's not.

In the end, it's what I think about free will -- the very answer of "why not?"

Would I care how 'objective' and measurable it is if it exists or not? "Why not?"
Would I care how absurd it is? "Why not?"
Would I limit it to humans and living creatures? "Why not?"

This isn't an argument either.
Everyone has their own thoughts about free will. Be it psychosis, spiritual, religious, scientific, egocentric... "Why not?"


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Last edited by Edna3362 on 29 Oct 2024, 2:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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29 Oct 2024, 1:50 pm

I voted "Other." I strongly suspect that free will is an illusion, but I don't know for sure. As for what it has to do with determinism, I think I know but I'd find it hard to put into words. I never heard of the term before, but on perusal I think it's the idea that the state of the entire universe at one particular point in time depends entirely on the state of the entire universe at the point just prior to that. If so, that's a big strand of my feeling that there is no free will, but I'm not sure that it's the whole story, so I thought I'd best vote "Other."



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29 Oct 2024, 2:32 pm

Well I've thought a bit about it and what my thoughts are is that there are the events in your life that are meant to be no matter what but you still need to use your free will cards for the smaller stuff that isn't really set in stone

It's like if you're going on a journey and there's loads of ways to get there those choices are free will but you're always gonna end up in the same place no matter what your choice is


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29 Oct 2024, 2:48 pm

Edna3362 wrote:
On a way smaller and individualized scale, yeah -- because the point of reference is you.
Even that specific part of post is referring to a 'you', not the entire post.

Right, I didn't specify it, but by "will" I mean one's individual (conscious?) desires (and beliefs to some extent). It doesn't have to be human will - one can speak about non-human animals' will. There is bunch of other views of will as some fundamental force in the universe - I didn't mean this kind of will when writing this post (cause I don't understand it :wink: ) So, bearing that in mind:

Edna3362 wrote:
Would will itself disappear when all humans disappear though? Some would believe not because all creatures have will.

I wouldn't identify will with life. Minimum requirement for a creature to have will would be to have sentient cravings.

Edna3362 wrote:
Would will itself disappear where there no form of observer, let alone an actor or an agent of any force that exists in this universe anymore?

If there were no creatures with sentient desires, it would make no sense ta speak about any kind of will.

ToughDiamond wrote:
I never heard of the term before, but on perusal I think it's the idea that the state of the entire universe at one particular point in time depends entirely on the state of the entire universe at the point just prior to that.

Exactly. The common way to describe it is to use the generalized idea of Maxwell's demon. A demon knows the exact state of the universe at certain point in time, and all laws of physics (or generally natural laws, if one believes in some other fundamental laws). In a deterministic world a demon can predict an exact state of the universe at any other point in time, in an indeterministic world it can not.


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31 Oct 2024, 1:16 am

In fact I'm gonna extend on what I said before and say that I think the only thing that's determined is death and it's all free will up to then


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