This is an opinion that was sent to me about patriarchy.
26 Nov 2023, 2:47 pm
What do you think about it?
There is little that can be done, this society of ours moves by slogans.
Now the predominant one is: patriarchy.
That then in this word everyone can hide everything they want, even if it is against the male.
Now the murders, the wars, even the condominium disputes will all be reported to the patriarchy.
A struggle between the right and the left under the banner of this word is already taking shape.
The class struggle has been supplanted by patriarchy. Finally sociologists will be able to have their say, they will be the future priests of humanity.
If we poor psychiatrists say, for example, that perhaps it was an underlying mental disorder that moved Filippo Turetta (a man in Italy who has depression and recently murdered his girlfriend-everybody is talking about it now), we are judged backward and not in line with modern conceptions of patriarchy.
Now males can finally come out; intellectuals, actors, politicians can say: I am patriarchal at 50x100, I at 20 and I at 10; then the purest of all comes and says: I am matriarchal.
And the women's assembly thus gives everyone absolution.
Surely after this post I will be classified 100x100 patriarchal, I haven't come out yet.
26 Nov 2023, 5:59 pm
There is little that can be done, this society of ours moves by slogans.
Now the predominant one is: patriarchy.
That then in this word everyone can hide everything they want, even if it is against the male.
Now the murders, the wars, even the condominium disputes will all be reported to the patriarchy.
A struggle between the right and the left under the banner of this word is already taking shape.
The class struggle has been supplanted by patriarchy. Finally sociologists will be able to have their say, they will be the future priests of humanity.
If we poor psychiatrists say, for example, that perhaps it was an underlying mental disorder that moved Filippo Turetta (a man in Italy who has depression and recently murdered his girlfriend-everybody is talking about it now), we are judged backward and not in line with modern conceptions of patriarchy.
Now males can finally come out; intellectuals, actors, politicians can say: I am patriarchal at 50x100, I at 20 and I at 10; then the purest of all comes and says: I am matriarchal.
And the women's assembly thus gives everyone absolution.
Surely after this post I will be classified 100x100 patriarchal, I haven't come out yet.
Is this something you wrote yourself, or are you quoting someone, and, if so, who?
Googling the incident you are talking about, I find this BBC story: Giulia Cecchettin's killing sparks Italian reckoning over femicide, 24th November 2023:
On 11 November - days before 22-year-old Giulia Cecchettin was due to get her biomedical engineering degree - she went to buy her graduation outfit with her ex-boyfriend Filippo Turetta.
Then, the couple disappeared.
A few days later, CCTV footage emerged showing the final moments of her life.
Mr Turetta, 22, can be seen beating his former partner in a car park close to her house in Vigonovo, near Venice - according to the investigating judge.
[Gory details snipped.]
She is believed to have died on the night of 11 November.
[...]
Data from the Italian interior ministry shows that 106 women have so far been killed in Italy this year, 55 of them allegedly by a partner or ex-partner.
Giulia Cecchettin's killing has sparked an unprecedented outpouring of grief and anger in Italy, where many women say patriarchal attitudes are entrenched.
More demonstrations are expected in several Italian cities on Saturday, to mark the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.
Italy's anti-violence and stalking hotline said calls had more than doubled in the past two days.
Elisa Ercoli, director of Differenza Donna, a non-government organisation fighting gender-based violence, told the BBC that the killing was "the last straw, after a string of high-profile cases of femicides."
She added that the reason most women endured violence was that their partner resented their independence.
"In a toxic relationship, the most unbearable thing for violent men is when women are more successful than them."
[...]
Ms Cecchettin's sister Elena said she had been concerned about his possessiveness, but never imagined he could hurt her.
She pointed to a patriarchal culture of violence and control over women that normalises men's dangerous behaviour.
"Filippo is often described as a monster, but he's not a monster," Elena told Italian media. "A monster is an exception, a person who's outside society, a person for whom society doesn't need to take responsibility.
"Monsters are healthy sons of the patriarchy and rape culture," she added.
Giorgia Meloni, Italy's first female prime minister, has expressed outrage at the country's long history of violence against women by partners and ex-partners.
She has promised a new educational campaign in schools to combat what she says is Italy's still-pervasive culture of misogynistic violence.
"Italy is a deeply patriarchal country," says Ms Ercoli. "It's a backward society where women are still subordinate."
[...]
"And while women have made big steps forward and are much more aware of their rights, men are still firmly anchored to the idea of a patriarchal relationship," Ms Ercoli says.
She hopes that the outpouring of anger caused by Giulia Cecchettin's death will trigger a profound change in Italian society.
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26 Nov 2023, 7:17 pm
Here are my comments on the BBC news story:
First, some of the quoted rhetoric seems to me to be a bit overblown. Obviously, it's not entirely "normal" for Italian men to kill their partners and ex-partners. If it were, then the number of such murders would be much higher than 55 so far this year.
Nevertheless, it is certainly conceivable that there might be aspects of Italian culture that encourage attitudes, such as pathological jealousy, which in extreme cases may manifest as murder of ex-partners. And perhaps there might be things that can be done to change this for the better.
I say "might," because I don't know anywhere enough about Italian culture to be sure. I've never even been to Italy.
What I do know is that we have much higher murder rates here in the U.S.A. (I'm actually quite impressed by Italy's apparently low murder rate!) And I know that killings of partners and ex-partners are among the most common types of murders here. And, here in the U.S.A., I do think residual patriarchy is one of the causes of this problem, although not the only cause.
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blitzkrieg
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26 Nov 2023, 8:59 pm
The concept of patriarchy in 2023 is ridiculous.
The world is not made for men by any means. Maybe it was a century ago.
But today? Men measure as doing worse on the most important things including education and society often values women over men in many areas.
Men do more dangerous jobs, work more hours, spend more money on their heterosexual partners than vice versa in most cases, men have to pay alimony more often, pay child support more often, have it the worst when it comes to the legal system regarding custody for children versus women.
Women have more choices when dating and often choose men rather than vice versa etc etc.
26 Nov 2023, 9:44 pm
- Sexual violence disproportionately affects some groups. Women and racial and ethnic minority groups experience a higher burden of sexual violence. For example, more than 2 in 5 non-Hispanic American Indian or Alaska Native and non-Hispanic multiracial women were raped in their lifetime.
https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/ ... 20lifetime.
- 13% of all students experience rape or sexual assault through physical force, violence, or incapacitation (among all graduate and undergraduate students).2
Among graduate and professional students,
- 9.7% of females and 2.5% of males experience rape or sexual assault through physical force, violence, or incapacitation.2
- Among undergraduate students, 26.4% of females and 6.8% of males experience rape or sexual assault through physical force, violence, or incapacitation.2
- 5.8% of students have experienced stalking since entering college.2
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/campus-sexual-violence
There are also ongoing, extensive, obvious problems with patriarchy in religion.
27 Nov 2023, 12:36 am
Depends where you live.
Fundamentalist Christians still tend to be quite patriarchal. So too are most of the more traditional and/or fundamentalist-like adherents of most of the other major religions.
And although mainstream Western culture has moved beyond patriarchy in many ways, there are still various odds and ends of patriarchal cultural residue, which many normies still embrace, such as the traditional Christian wedding ceremony.
Also as TwilightPrincess has pointed out, sexual violence is still common and disproportionately affects women, although it does affect men too.
Edit: Also, even among nonreligious folks here in the West, there seems to be a growing far-right subculture of men who want to return to patriarchy.
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27 Nov 2023, 7:41 am
Let's talk a bit about the culture in Italy. Italy has a unique cultural and historical background that influences the expression of feminism in the country. In comparison to the United States, some people may perceive Italian feminism as less "extreme" based on the methods of activism, the prominence of certain feminist issues, and the overall tone of the movement. Third wave feminism is not much prominent in here. And when people want to talk about things like gender issues, they find a lot of resistance.
We live in a catholic state, where the Church has a lot of power (even the pope says it doesn't....), and our culture is influenced by the church teachings, even if attendance to Church is lower than ever. Italian fashion has important role too because it objectifies everyone. Feminicide is a topic that is talked about everyday by the main news channels. It seems that everyday there's a new one. And on the news they say that it's the fault of patriarchy among other things. This recent murder that happened a couple days before International Women's Day has sparked a lot of outrage. There are manifestations happening on the streets, and on the schools grounds....
But the main focus is the laws that allow the perpetrators of violence to be set free a couple months after an attack. Recently there was also a case of man who poured acid onto her girlfriend, and then killed her a couple of months later because he wasn't punished at all by the law the at the moment of his first offence. That's the main problem. Man are set free or not punished at all, and then someone gets killed or abused as a result.
It's not much of a matter of women against men. Nobody is against men in general, but against the culture that leads to this events. Women want to feel safe. So they know that if they meet a deranged person who hurts them, they will be protected by the state. And of course a lot of men are taking this personally, saying that women are against them. Which is a generalization that it's simply not true. Women are against the culture that allows feminicides to happen and to which the majority of men are the perpetrators. That's a big distinction.
Then there's Meloni (the prime minister), who denied she was an expression of the patriarchal culture. Well that's partially true, but she's always partially an expression of the patriarchal culture. And like her there are a lot of women who are not conscious of their damaging role. And that's nobody's fault. We are brainwashed by our culture, that lets people think that the murder of a woman, in which the man thinks he owns her (as if she were a cow), is not a big deal...
27 Nov 2023, 9:35 am
Do you have experience in the family court system, and do you think it's unfair that non-custodial fathers should support their children?
Child support is calculated on the payor's income as well as the child's needs. It's proportionate to what the custodial parent pays to house, heat, feed, clothe, educate, supervise, and care for the child for at least 18 years, factoring in their reduced ability to work full-time, or spend leisure time on their own. If the child is in a daycare program each parent pays half of the expense, unless there's a significant income disparity between the parties. In that case they would each pay a percentage relative to their previous year's salary (determined by tax papers).
Furthermore, mothers do not automatically win custody or even alimony and child support. The parent with the greater income usually wins custody, a) because they can afford a better lawyer, and b ) because they can provide a better standard of living for their children without relying on child support. Child support is rarely imposed these days because courts in the western world have moved toward cooperative parenting where the child is shuttled back and forth between parents like a ping pong ball, to avoid financial sanctions on the one deemed non-custodial. I have issues with this, but that's another topic.
Please note that there are two kinds of custody pertaining to dependents. You seem to be thinking of "physical custody" which I've described above. It's usually cooperative and 50-50 such that child support isn't payable. Legal custody is the more contentious issue for most courts, and the focus of most family law disputes. It determines which parent will have authority to make decisions on the minor's behalf, like choosing schools and doctors, applying for passports and doing international travel, making daily decisions in the child's best interest, and being the legal contact in times of emergency.
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blitzkrieg
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27 Nov 2023, 11:48 am
Not personally, no, although I know of a lot of people who have been through the family court system and invariably it seems that a woman comes out on top. Women don't usually have to pay alimony for example, which is more common for men to pay.
Yep, and since men usually earn more than women, men end up paying more than the women in these cases. If the women in these cases work, they mostly do have to pay some kind of child care in the US for example, particularly if they are full time workers. If not, they might not have a job and are available to be 'full time moms" in which case they usually receive more money from the man to bring up the child.
In the UK, there is a certain amount of free child care that a person gets anyway which is administered by the DWP.
Not automatically no. Each case is given due scrutiny. In my previous post I was alluding to bias in the family court system against men, I didn't say that mothers automatically win custody or alimony or child support. Obviously that isn't true, otherwise there would be no need for a court to mediate between two parties, would there?
In the UK, the child maintenance service can force a parent (usually the man) to pay child support payments until a child of theirs is the age of 18. This even includes collecting the payments directly from a person/parents bank account (again, usually the man).
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-new-crackdown-on-parents-who-refuse-to-pay-child-maintenance
27 Nov 2023, 12:50 pm
I've never known any person who has been paid alimony unless they've been full-time caregivers for their children and / or their spouse throughout the course of a lengthy relationship. It's rare than any mother or father can afford to be a stay-at-home parent or housekeeper for several years and, if they have, they were dependent on the other person's income with a fiduciary relationship which legally continues until that person is self-sufficient.
If many women are awarded alimony as you say, that means the men earn substantially more money and have much better jobs, or that their partners didn't work outside the home because of special needs / obligations to the family. Wouldn't that contradict your assertion that men and women have equal opportunities in the workforce?
In the UK, there is a certain amount of free child care that a person gets anyway which is administered by the DWP.
Why do you think men "usually earn more than women"? I'm not disputing you, but again that reinforces the notion of patriarchal control within systems and families. If they earn more, shouldn't they pay more? Your logic does not make sense here. I'm sure you'd agree if the woman earned more, she should pay accordingly.
Regarding childcare - Yes of course women and all parents pay childcare. I paid $1500 month nearly thirty years ago, when I was earning under $20K / year. It was financially disadvantageous for me to work, but if I quit my job I would have lost custody because I wouldn't be earning medical benefits or a pension for my children's future. The father did not contribute to this childcare expense despite multiple court orders requiring him to pay between 50 - 66%, depending on his yearly income. That money was never collected by the courts. Collection requires the payee parent to pay exorbitant legal fees. For example, in one of my ex's default trials, I was awarded $20K in arrears from my exh but the legal fees for this matter exceeded that amount by another $10K. My lawyer collected the $20K cheque from his lawyer, and kept it to pay for services rendered. Then I paid another $10K in debt to settle the account.
Legal representation is not free for the payor or the recipient, and costs are not awarded when one party "wins".
I can't keep writing as I'm on my way out the door. I don't want to derail this thread either. I'm not sure if this information is germane to the OP's concern but I'll check more closely when I get home.
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27 Nov 2023, 12:51 pm
I've never known any person who has been paid alimony unless they've been full-time caregivers for their children and / or their spouse throughout the course of a lengthy relationship. It's rare than any mother or father can afford to be a stay-at-home parent or housekeeper for several years and, if they have, they were dependent on the other person's income with a fiduciary relationship which legally continues until that person is self-sufficient.
If many women are awarded alimony as you say, that means the men earn substantially more money and have much better jobs, or that their partners didn't work outside the home because of special needs / obligations to the family. Wouldn't that contradict your assertion that men and women have equal opportunities in the workforce?
In the UK, there is a certain amount of free child care that a person gets anyway which is administered by the DWP.
Why do you think men "usually earn more than women"? I'm not disputing you, but again that reinforces the notion of patriarchal control within systems and families. If they earn more, shouldn't they pay more? Your logic does not make sense here. I'm sure you'd agree if the woman earned more, she should pay accordingly.
Regarding childcare - Yes of course women and all parents pay childcare. I paid $1500 month nearly thirty years ago, when I was earning under $20K / year. It was financially disadvantageous for me to work, but if I quit my job I would have lost custody because I wouldn't be earning medical benefits or a pension for my children's future. The father did not contribute to this childcare expense despite multiple court orders requiring him to pay between 50 - 66%, depending on his yearly income. That money was never collected by the courts. Collection requires the payee parent to pay exorbitant legal fees. For example, in one of my ex's default trials, I was awarded $20K in arrears from my exh but the legal fees for this matter exceeded that amount by another $10K. My lawyer collected the $20K cheque from his lawyer, and kept it to pay for services rendered. Then I paid another $10K in debt to settle the account.
That means I paid $30K and did not get to keep the $20K. Net loss = $50K.
Legal representation is not free for the payor or the recipient, and costs are not awarded when one party "wins".
I can't keep writing as I'm on my way out the door. I don't want to derail this thread either. I'm not sure if this information is germane to the OP's concern but I'll check more closely when I get home.
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Beatles
27 Nov 2023, 1:00 pm
I know of one man that got alimony.
My deceased neighbor’s ex.She was heir to a frozen food company and he never worked.He also got custody of the child, the daughter was old enough to decide who she wanted to live with and choose her Dad.
Rumor was he received around three grand a month alimony and child support.This was in the early nineties so a nice sum.
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27 Nov 2023, 1:07 pm
My brother was awarded child support from our adopted son's biological parents before and after the adoption. The bio father's family are millionaires but they did not pay a penny. The bio mother is a drug trafficker and sex worker but also very wealthy through her ... associations. She was gifted a multimillion dollar home by her pimps but ended up cooking meth in the home and it was seized by police. None of that asset went to her biological child or my brother, despite the court order.
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blitzkrieg
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27 Nov 2023, 1:59 pm
If many women are awarded alimony as you say, that means the men earn substantially more money and have much better jobs, or that their partners didn't work outside the home because of special needs / obligations to the family. Wouldn't that contradict your assertion that men and women have equal opportunities in the workforce?
I said that men pay alimony more often than women, I did not say alimony is paid often in general.
I also said that men typically earn more than women. I did not state that men and women have equal opportunities in the workforce (I didn't even mention my opinion on that).
There are cultural reasons for women not wanting to sell their time and soul to capitalism as readily as men do - and even when they do, they often go into lower paid work such as caring more often which is why on average, women get paid less (not because they get paid less for the same type of work, usually), but because the type of work they often (but not always) do is deemed less valuable, even for men who do those types of work, also.
Men can earn more than women usually by working more hours or taking on more responsibility at work, or working jobs that pay more or which involve danger money factored into their pay (the military for example).
That does not reinforce a patriarchal notion at all. If the opportunities are there for women to earn more but they don't take them, that is on them, not the imagined patriarchy. Also, it could be argued that the cultural pressure on men to be the breadwinner is sexist itself and if anything is matriarchal, not patriarchal.
The cultural notion that nen must earn more to be worthy partners in a lot of cases, means that men often don't have a choice but to earn more if they want to interest a woman. So yes, it would be expected that they pay more legally in a child support case (or a woman would if they earn more), but the reasons for these cultural trends is something to think about. Who benefits from men earning more - men or women?
Women absolutely have more spent on them by their male partners than vice versa and usually even spend more on themselves than their male partners. This is all documented in books like The Myth of Male Power by Warren Farrell.
I think these costs are more of a testament to the rip off nature of the country you have lived in rather than anything else
Okay.
Last edited by blitzkrieg on 27 Nov 2023, 2:02 pm, edited 5 times in total.
