Israel/Palestine and settler-colonialism
15 Jan 2024, 10:27 pm
In this thread, let's discuss the following questions:
1) What is settler-colonialism?
2) What are the differences (and similarities) between settler-colonialism and other kinds of colonialism?
3) Is "settler-colonialism" an accurate term to describe Israel's (and/or Zionism's) relationship to the Palestinians?
4) What are the implications, in terms of what it might take to finally resolve the causes of the ongoing conflict in a humane and just manner?
See the following Wikipedia pages:
- Settler-colonialism
- Zionism as settler colonialism
See also the following Epedia page:
- What is the Difference Between Settler Colonialism and Colonialism?
_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
15 Jan 2024, 10:34 pm
Continuing this discussion from another thread: Here, I wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Organized Zionism is/was indeed a settler-colonial project, almost from the get-go.
What makes it settler-colonialist is/was settler-colonialist behaviors, not the mere fact that many (though not all) Israeli Jews came from Europe, nor the mere fact that Lord Balfour was British. [...]
Starting in about 1905 or so, Jewish Zionist immigrants to Palestine were doing things like buying up large tracts of land from absentee landlords and evicting all the former inhabitants, or starting businesses that originally employed local Arabs, but then suddenly fired them all in favor of newly-arriving Jews.
That sort of behavior greatly alarmed local Arabs. Had the Jewish Zionists immigrated in a less overbearing, less disruptive way, they would have been just immigrants, not settler-colonialists. Palestine had a long prior history of welcoming various groups of refugees, e.g. Armenians and Circassians.
Then, along came the Partition Plan, which was rejected by the Arabs as totally uncalled-for. Given that the Zionist Jews were still only a very small fraction of the population of Palestine, why should they be given the majority of the land, at the expense of the many more people who were already living there?
And then, in 1948, there was the Nakba, which has a lot in common with the Trail of Tears and other forced migrations of indigenous Americans here in the U.S.A. The Wikipedia articles on the Nakba and on the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight have a map showing all the forcibly depopulated villages.
That's not a reasonable goal at this point.
The U.S.A., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are settler-colonial societies too, but that doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect all their non-indigenous inhabitants to move back to Europe or wherever our ancestors came from.
Ditto for South Africa, which was effectively de-colonized, to a significant degree at least, by the ending of Apartheid -- although there are still some unresolved, highly controversial issues such as land reform.
The French exodus from Algeria is a very unusual outcome for a settler-colonial society. Such an exodus is much more typical of the end of ordinary colonialism (dependencies, e.g. British rule in India) than of settler-colonialism. It is clearly not reasonable to expect this in Israel.
By the way, the facts that Israeli Jews come from many different countries around the world and that many of them cannot go back is a point of similarity to settler-colonialism as practiced here in the U.S.A during the century or so after the U.S.A. became an independent country, but while it was still in process of conquering the indigenous people. During that time, the U.S.A. was very welcoming of immigrants from all parts of Europe and sometimes from Asia too, telling both them and already-existing American citizens to "go West, young man!" -- so as to have more settlers to help put down the indigenous people and be rewarded with cheap land. Israel likewise goes out of its way to welcome Jewish immigrants from all over the world, for what it euphemistically calls "demographic" reasons. And, just like many of the Jews who came to Israel after World War II, many immigrants to the U.S.A. were likewise fleeing persecution, wars, famines, and other unlivable conditions elsewhere in the world.
What makes it settler-colonialist is/was settler-colonialist behaviors, not the mere fact that many (though not all) Israeli Jews came from Europe, nor the mere fact that Lord Balfour was British. [...]
Starting in about 1905 or so, Jewish Zionist immigrants to Palestine were doing things like buying up large tracts of land from absentee landlords and evicting all the former inhabitants, or starting businesses that originally employed local Arabs, but then suddenly fired them all in favor of newly-arriving Jews.
That sort of behavior greatly alarmed local Arabs. Had the Jewish Zionists immigrated in a less overbearing, less disruptive way, they would have been just immigrants, not settler-colonialists. Palestine had a long prior history of welcoming various groups of refugees, e.g. Armenians and Circassians.
Then, along came the Partition Plan, which was rejected by the Arabs as totally uncalled-for. Given that the Zionist Jews were still only a very small fraction of the population of Palestine, why should they be given the majority of the land, at the expense of the many more people who were already living there?
And then, in 1948, there was the Nakba, which has a lot in common with the Trail of Tears and other forced migrations of indigenous Americans here in the U.S.A. The Wikipedia articles on the Nakba and on the 1948 Palestinian expulsion and flight have a map showing all the forcibly depopulated villages.
ASPartOfMe wrote:
True, partially true, or false the perception of Israeli Jews as colonizers and Palestinians as indigenous people makes it easier to believe the ultimate long term goal is to have no Jews there.
That's not a reasonable goal at this point.
The U.S.A., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand are settler-colonial societies too, but that doesn't mean it's reasonable to expect all their non-indigenous inhabitants to move back to Europe or wherever our ancestors came from.
Ditto for South Africa, which was effectively de-colonized, to a significant degree at least, by the ending of Apartheid -- although there are still some unresolved, highly controversial issues such as land reform.
The French exodus from Algeria is a very unusual outcome for a settler-colonial society. Such an exodus is much more typical of the end of ordinary colonialism (dependencies, e.g. British rule in India) than of settler-colonialism. It is clearly not reasonable to expect this in Israel.
By the way, the facts that Israeli Jews come from many different countries around the world and that many of them cannot go back is a point of similarity to settler-colonialism as practiced here in the U.S.A during the century or so after the U.S.A. became an independent country, but while it was still in process of conquering the indigenous people. During that time, the U.S.A. was very welcoming of immigrants from all parts of Europe and sometimes from Asia too, telling both them and already-existing American citizens to "go West, young man!" -- so as to have more settlers to help put down the indigenous people and be rewarded with cheap land. Israel likewise goes out of its way to welcome Jewish immigrants from all over the world, for what it euphemistically calls "demographic" reasons. And, just like many of the Jews who came to Israel after World War II, many immigrants to the U.S.A. were likewise fleeing persecution, wars, famines, and other unlivable conditions elsewhere in the world.
_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
15 Jan 2024, 10:41 pm
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I wanted to start a separate thread about this but since you brought it up. All non indigenous North Americans are living on land gained through racial cleansing. Besides the ‘Trail of Tears’ more recently you had the ‘Sixties Scoop’ in Canada and in 2024 Indians are living on reservations.
Do we have people chanting “Free Free Cherokee”, nope. Is there a discussion about does the phrase “From Ocean to Ocean” mean genocide or the local or state, provincial equivalent of a one state solution, no because there is no chant like that. There is little to no demand for a state, provincial, or local equivalent of a one or two state solution. The is not much of a BDS movement targeting America or Canada over their treatment of indigenous people or blacks.
There has not been a serious significant Indigenous people or black guerrilla war uprising for the purpose of making Canada, America, states, provinces, localities cease to exist. Should that happen how many these activists will say I accept being governed by people who blew up people I know, never mind leaving because I have no right to be here? Even if Trump is not President would the government reaction be less lethal than Israel’s or “proportional”?
Do we have people chanting “Free Free Cherokee”, nope. Is there a discussion about does the phrase “From Ocean to Ocean” mean genocide or the local or state, provincial equivalent of a one state solution, no because there is no chant like that. There is little to no demand for a state, provincial, or local equivalent of a one or two state solution. The is not much of a BDS movement targeting America or Canada over their treatment of indigenous people or blacks.
There has not been a serious significant Indigenous people or black guerrilla war uprising for the purpose of making Canada, America, states, provinces, localities cease to exist. Should that happen how many these activists will say I accept being governed by people who blew up people I know, never mind leaving because I have no right to be here? Even if Trump is not President would the government reaction be less lethal than Israel’s or “proportional”?
I'll reply when I have time to do so. In the meantime, feel free to add further comments.
_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,216
Location: Long Island, New York
16 Jan 2024, 6:20 am
I know you are busy because you did not have time to participate in our chat group so I appreciate taking time to create these threads.
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,216
Location: Long Island, New York
16 Jan 2024, 8:06 am
I do understand my analogies were far from perfect. While there is one Palestinian identity there are multiple tribes of Native Americans/First People. There was nothing remotely like a sustained bombing campaign in a densely populated area created by European-Americans, and European-Canadians.
That said of most of us North Americans are living on racial cleansed land and are not dealing with the remnant discrimination and dehumanization. The native American/First Peoples situation would seem to fit into “woke ideology” view of hierarchies of privileges and oppression and systematic racism.
The obvious reason North American indigenous peoples plight have lower priority(less in the U.S. then Canada as the sixties scoop is more recent) is they have no equivalent of the George Floyd video or the multiple videos from Gaza.
My purpose is to point out the hypocrisy of people thousands of miles away especially those who have brought hyper identity politics to the fore saying one group should not be allowed to have one country. But it is also more personal to say look in the mirror and say to yourself while you hope you would still feel Israel should not exist as Jewish state would you feel that if you had their history and situation? Or more close to home would you support the replacement of the U.S. even if a lot of advocates are pretty violent about it?
If I was a Palestinian living in Gaza would I have supported 10/7. I sincerely hope not. I am not sure. If I was a Palestinian-American with ties to Gaza or the West Bank would I think the current civil disobedience campaign is to wimpy and that bombing synagogues is the way to go? I hope not. I hope I would be able separate American Jews from West Bank settlers. I am not sure that I would not note that most American synagogues are actively zionist an cheer such a “freedom fighter” campaign.
There are people who under horrible circumstances don’t let their emotions get to them. Are you one of those people? If you think so think again, and again. If you are one was those people I admire you because you are a better person then me, period.
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
16 Jan 2024, 8:44 am
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I do understand my analogies were far from perfect. While there is one Palestinian identity there are multiple tribes of Native Americans/First People. There was nothing remotely like a sustained bombing campaign in a densely populated area created by European-Americans, and European-Canadians.
That said of most of us North Americans are living on racial cleansed land and are not dealing with the remnant discrimination and dehumanization. The native American/First Peoples situation would seem to fit into “woke ideology” view of hierarchies of privileges and oppression and systematic racism.
The obvious reason North American indigenous peoples plight have lower priority(less in the U.S. then Canada as the sixties scoop is more recent) is they have no equivalent of the George Floyd video or the multiple videos from Gaza.
My purpose is to point out the hypocrisy of people thousands of miles away especially those who have brought hyper identity politics to the fore saying one group should not be allowed to have one country. But it is also more personal to say look in the mirror and say to yourself while you hope you would still feel Israel should not exist as Jewish state would you feel that if you had their history and situation? Or more close to home would you support the replacement of the U.S. even if a lot of advocates are pretty violent about it?
If I was a Palestinian living in Gaza would I have supported 10/7. I sincerely hope not. I am not sure. If I was a Palestinian-American with ties to Gaza or the West Bank would I think the current civil disobedience campaign is to wimpy and that bombing synagogues is the way to go? I hope not. I hope I would be able separate American Jews from West Bank settlers. I am not sure that I would not note that most American synagogues are actively zionist an cheer such a “freedom fighter” campaign.
There are people who under horrible circumstances don’t let their emotions get to them. Are you one of those people? If you think so think again, and again. If you are one was those people I admire you because you are a better person then me, period.
That said of most of us North Americans are living on racial cleansed land and are not dealing with the remnant discrimination and dehumanization. The native American/First Peoples situation would seem to fit into “woke ideology” view of hierarchies of privileges and oppression and systematic racism.
The obvious reason North American indigenous peoples plight have lower priority(less in the U.S. then Canada as the sixties scoop is more recent) is they have no equivalent of the George Floyd video or the multiple videos from Gaza.
My purpose is to point out the hypocrisy of people thousands of miles away especially those who have brought hyper identity politics to the fore saying one group should not be allowed to have one country. But it is also more personal to say look in the mirror and say to yourself while you hope you would still feel Israel should not exist as Jewish state would you feel that if you had their history and situation? Or more close to home would you support the replacement of the U.S. even if a lot of advocates are pretty violent about it?
If I was a Palestinian living in Gaza would I have supported 10/7. I sincerely hope not. I am not sure. If I was a Palestinian-American with ties to Gaza or the West Bank would I think the current civil disobedience campaign is to wimpy and that bombing synagogues is the way to go? I hope not. I hope I would be able separate American Jews from West Bank settlers. I am not sure that I would not note that most American synagogues are actively zionist an cheer such a “freedom fighter” campaign.
There are people who under horrible circumstances don’t let their emotions get to them. Are you one of those people? If you think so think again, and again. If you are one was those people I admire you because you are a better person then me, period.
To a large extent it's true that North America is racially cleansed, however it's worth noting that a significant portion of the space was cleared via infectious disease before there was any direct contact. meaning that even without the land being purposefully cleared, a significant quantity would have gone to settlers anyways.
Which is a bit different as all the Palestinian land that's in settler hands has to be cleared in some fashion.
16 Jan 2024, 2:03 pm
ASPartOfMe wrote:
My purpose is to point out the hypocrisy of people thousands of miles away especially those who have brought hyper identity politics to the fore saying one group should not be allowed to have one country.
A fundamental difference between the US and Israel is that the US is not a "European" (or any other ethnicity) State. On the contrary it prides itself to be a melting pot where no ethnicity have any special legal rights.
_________________
English is not my first language.
16 Jan 2024, 2:36 pm
Israel is exactly like the US or Australia.
The difference is the ratio in population sizes between the colonists and aboriginal populations.
The Jewish population of Palestine, and the Arab population, have always been of comparable size (in the millions) since the founding of Israel though both have grown a lot in size during that time.
The Australian Abos could never dream of driving the ENTIRE White population out of Australia the way the Palestinians could in theory drive all Zionist Jews out of Israel (and certainly Israel could cleanse Israel of Arabs even more easily)..even if the Aboriginies had been getting advanced weapons from from foreign superpowers. Thats because the Aboriginies only had 100 thousand people against the White population in the millions.
In 1860 The US had settled all of the land from the Atlantic to just a little west of the Mississippi. Beyond that frontier were the still wild Indians who numbered 300 thousand. The White (and African) population of the US was 30 million. A hundred times the ENTIRE population of Indians.
In 1861 White America took time off from expanding west at the expense of the Indians to...beat the crap out of itself in the Civil War. During that war it lost 600 thousand lives, or more. A number twice the size of the ENTIRE native American population at that time!
White America was able slaughter its 600K of its own people in a war..and then just pick up where it left off...and finishing the conquest of the remaining 300 thousand native Americans ...by 1890...without breaking a sweat.
THAT is how lopsided the contest was in the demographic size of the two sides.
17 Jan 2024, 2:39 am
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Mona, correct me if I am wrong but your anti zionist beliefs do not seem to based on the idea that excluding West Bank settlers Israeli Jews are not colonists. You are an outlier among anti-Zionists in that regard, Israelis as colonizers is and has always been central to the anti zionist argument.
One possible source of confusion has occurred to me.
There are two sets of issues:
1) Israel as a whole is indeed a settler-colonial state, to begin with, as explained earlier in this thread.
2) However, back in the 1990's, the PLO agreed to a compromise known as the Oslo Accords. Since then, the term "Israeli settler" commonly refers only to those Israeli citizens who live in occupied territories (in violation of the Oslo Accords and in violation of international law more generally), rather than in Israel proper.
_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
17 Jan 2024, 3:07 am
BillyTree wrote:
A fundamental difference between the US and Israel is that the US is not a "European" (or any other ethnicity) State. On the contrary it prides itself to be a melting pot where no ethnicity have any special legal rights.
That's true currently, but only since the 1960's.
The vast majority of immigrants to the U.S.A. before then were from Europe, and primarily Western Europe.
Whenever some large number of people of color began immigrating, Congress passed laws to limit them, while still welcoming immigrants from Europe. Examples: the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 , the Alien Contract Labor laws of 1885 and 1887, and the National Origins Quota Act of 1924. (See Major US Immigration Laws, 1790 - Present.)
_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
17 Jan 2024, 3:32 am
Mona Pereth wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
A fundamental difference between the US and Israel is that the US is not a "European" (or any other ethnicity) State. On the contrary it prides itself to be a melting pot where no ethnicity have any special legal rights.
That's true currently, but only since the 1960's.
The vast majority of immigrants to the U.S.A. before then were from Europe, and primarily Western Europe.
Whenever some large number of people of color began immigrating, Congress passed laws to limit them, while still welcoming immigrants from Europe. Examples: the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 , the Alien Contract Labor laws of 1885 and 1887, and the National Origins Quota Act of 1924. (See Major US Immigration Laws, 1790 - Present.)
Most immigrants to America during the era Ellis Island operated (1880s to 1924) were from southern and from eastern Europe. Most American Jews are here because their grand parents came over here during that era from the Russian or from the Austro-Hungarian Empires of east Europe. As well as most Gentile Poles and Italians. Forty million people came here during that time.
But the rest of what you're saying is right. White folks from Eastern Europe were just as hated as non Whites by the core society so thats why they enacted the "National Origins Quota Act" and shut down Ellis Island.
When they repealed the rule in 1964 because it violated the then recent civil right legislation a new wave of immigrants started to trickle in from the Third World of brown and Black folks.
ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,216
Location: Long Island, New York
17 Jan 2024, 5:53 am
naturalplastic wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
A fundamental difference between the US and Israel is that the US is not a "European" (or any other ethnicity) State. On the contrary it prides itself to be a melting pot where no ethnicity have any special legal rights.
That's true currently, but only since the 1960's.
The vast majority of immigrants to the U.S.A. before then were from Europe, and primarily Western Europe.
Whenever some large number of people of color began immigrating, Congress passed laws to limit them, while still welcoming immigrants from Europe. Examples: the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 , the Alien Contract Labor laws of 1885 and 1887, and the National Origins Quota Act of 1924. (See Major US Immigration Laws, 1790 - Present.)
Most immigrants to America during the era Ellis Island operated (1880s to 1924) were from southern and from eastern Europe. Most American Jews are here because their grand parents came over here during that era from the Russian or from the Austro-Hungarian Empires of east Europe. As well as most Gentile Poles and Italians. Forty million people came here during that time.
But the rest of what you're saying is right. White folks from Eastern Europe were just as hated as non Whites by the core society so thats why they enacted the "National Origins Quota Act" and shut down Ellis Island.
When they repealed the rule in 1964 because it violated the then recent civil right legislation a new wave of immigrants started to trickle in from the Third World of brown and Black folks.
This is exactly how my grandparents and great grandparents immigrated here. There was both pogroms and Russians going from village to village and forcing people into the army.
Anti Semitism peaked in America late 1930s and into the 1940s with the German-American Bund and Christian Front and celebrity Anti-Semites Henry Ford, Charles Lindberg, and radio personality Father Coughlin.
_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity
“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman
21 Dec 2024, 1:33 am
ASPartOfMe wrote:
the "woke left"
[...]
the idea that Israel has been a uniquely evil settler colonial project that is genociding the natives
[...]
the idea that Israel has been a uniquely evil settler colonial project that is genociding the natives
As far as I am aware, no one on the "woke left" says that Israel has been a uniquely evil settler colonial project. Similar evils were perpetrated, longer ago, here in the U.S.A., and in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. The only things "unique" about Israel, in this particular regard, are:
1) Israel was a century too late to the party. Israel is doing its settler-colonialist thing in a world where there is now such a thing as "international law," which condemns various settler-colonialist behaviors.
2) Israel is doing its settler-colonialist thing in a locale that is naturally in the international spotlight, being a "Holy Land" not just for Jews but also for the world's two most popular religions, and is also on a major natural international trade route.
3) Israel is doing its settler-colonialist thing with more foreign aid, from the U.S.A., than the U.S.A. gives to any other country. This makes many American leftists feel that we, here in the U.S.A., are collectively responsible for Israel's ongoing displacement of Palestinians if we don't do what we can to put a stop to it.
Anyhow:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
As I said in another thread I predict if Israel fails Americans will say something like "Having failed to settler colonize Palestine they want to try that s**t here. f**k off. " Not only the "woke left" but the die-hard Christian Zionist "Jew lovers". There are some similarities between the idea that Israel has been a uniquely evil settler colonial project that is genociding the natives from the get-go and the Great Replacement Theory which posits that Jews are here to replace white people with "them".
There are superficial similarities, but also fundamental differences.
The "Great Replacement" theory is not based on anything even remotely resembling real-life settler-colonialism. On the contrary, it is based on a paranoid interpretation of liberal and leftist Jews forming alliances with various marginalized groups, in Western countries, with the goal of a society in which everyone's rights are protected.
ASPartOfMe wrote:
The Jews will be blamed for putting off the coming of the Messiah.
... unless the evangelical Christian world finally manages to put to rest the relevant end-times beliefs. Pre-millennial dispensationalism, for example, is no longer respectable in most evangelical Christian seminaries, although it's still popular among lay evangelicals and in the charismatic and neo-charismatic movements. Hopefully a lot of self-proclaimed "prophets" will be discredited by their failed predictions.
Of course, that's a best-case scenario, certainly not guaranteed to happen. But, IMO, it's one more reason why it's important to get as many American Christians as possible to listen to Palestinian Christians, especially those in Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem.
(Also, evangelical Christians should be encouraged to read things like Here's the problem with most modern day prophets... by evangelical Christian blogger Craig Greenfield, March 28, 2022.)
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Satan will probably get in there somehow.
Yes, in the eyes of hardcore Christians, Satan gets into just about everything.
_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
21 Dec 2024, 2:20 am
Mona Pereth wrote:
In this thread, let's discuss the following questions:
1) What is settler-colonialism?
2) What are the differences (and similarities) between settler-colonialism and other kinds of colonialism?
3) Is "settler-colonialism" an accurate term to describe Israel's (and/or Zionism's) relationship to the Palestinians?
4) What are the implications, in terms of what it might take to finally resolve the causes of the ongoing conflict in a humane and just manner?
See the following Wikipedia pages:
- Settler-colonialism
- Zionism as settler colonialism
See also the following Epedia page:
- What is the Difference Between Settler Colonialism and Colonialism?
1) What is settler-colonialism?
2) What are the differences (and similarities) between settler-colonialism and other kinds of colonialism?
3) Is "settler-colonialism" an accurate term to describe Israel's (and/or Zionism's) relationship to the Palestinians?
4) What are the implications, in terms of what it might take to finally resolve the causes of the ongoing conflict in a humane and just manner?
See the following Wikipedia pages:
- Settler-colonialism
- Zionism as settler colonialism
See also the following Epedia page:
- What is the Difference Between Settler Colonialism and Colonialism?
1. Settler-colonialism has a historical context. It generally refers to Europeans coming to North America and colonizing the lands, though it doesn't have to refer to this exclusively.
When people refer to settler-colonialism these days it can often be used as an argument to support their worldview.
I.E. as a caucasian living in North America, I have been labeled a settler/colonizer occasionally on social media by randoms who want to argue silly points. Their label doesn't work for me except in their minds. They to me are racists, bigots and gaslighters.
This label is factually incorrect and made by someone to support their beliefs. It's impossible for me to be a settler because I was born in the lands I live in. Settlers are not native to the lands they settle in. Some people lacking in critical thinking abilities assume that all white people are settlers. It's a moronic way of looking at the world. Some of these people are elected officials, including my own elected city council representative who indirectly referred to me as a settler. It's laughable. It's sad that our society has gotten to this point.
2. The two words mean different things. I'm not going to expand on that because I don't feel it's necessary.
Grab a dictionary and figure it out for yourself. Words have meaning and we can educate ourselves what they mean.
3. This is a comment made to support a world view. I would say it is inappropriate because Israel was created to give Jewish people a homeland after WW2 where over 6 million Jews died in the holocaust. The conflict between Jewish peoples and Palestinians has been going on for centuries as far as I understand. I am no history expert but I do know there are historical tensions between these two groups. I am not picking sides and calling Israel the agressor.
Let's expand on the original question which asks Is "settler-colonialism" an accurate term to describe Israel's (and/or Zionism's) relationship to the Palestinians?
Is terrorism, genocide, pure evil and all out war accurate to describe the October 7, 2023 attack on Israel by Hammas?
100%, without a doubt.
4. What are the implications, in terms of what it might take to finally resolve the causes of the ongoing conflict in a humane and just manner?
Eradicating Hamas is a necessary step. War is war and being humane doesn't resolve violent conflict from evil aggressors.
21 Dec 2024, 3:44 am
123autism wrote:
1. Settler-colonialism has a historical context. It generally refers to Europeans coming to North America and colonizing the lands, though it doesn't have to refer to this exclusively.
Settler-colonialism is a set of group behaviors. See the Wikipedia article on settler-colonialism.
Settler-colonialism isn't something done just by Europeans, or even just by European-descended white people. For example, Morocco, a country in north Africa, is currently doing settler-colonialism in Western Sahara, at the expense of indigenous Sahrawis.
123autism wrote:
Settlers are not native to the lands they settle in. Some people lacking in critical thinking abilities assume that all white people are settlers. It's a moronic way of looking at the world. Some of these people are elected officials, including my own elected city council representative who indirectly referred to me as a settler. It's laughable.
Calling you, personally, a settler, is indeed sloppy wording. It would be more accurate to say that many of us white folks, here in the Americas, are descended from settlers.
123autism wrote:
3. This is a comment made to support a world view. I would say it is inappropriate because Israel was created to give Jewish people a homeland after WW2 where over 6 million Jews died in the holocaust.
Things would have been much better if more countries had welcomed more Jewish refugees as immigrants during and before World War II. Then the Nazis would not have been able to kill six million Jews in the first place. Unfortunately there was a lot of anti-Jewish bigotry in the U.S.A. at that time, and in other Western countries too.
But there is no intrinsic right to a "homeland." There are plenty of ethnic groups that don't have "homelands," and there is no internationally-recognized right to create one by displacing another group.
123autism wrote:
The conflict between Jewish peoples and Palestinians has been going on for centuries as far as I understand.
Nope. Only for a little over one hundred years.
Before then, there were some Jews who lived in Palestine (which then was part of the Ottoman Empire) and got along fine with their Muslim and Christian neighbors, at least for the most part. Living under Muslim rule was not ideal for these Jews, but it was a lot better than the way Jews had been treated for centuries in Christian Europe.
Trouble between Jews and other folks in Palestine began in the early 1900's, when it became clear that the newly-arriving Zionist Jews weren't just ordinary immigrants but intended to take over the land and displace the indigenous Palestinians.
123autism wrote:
Let's expand on the original question which asks Is "settler-colonialism" an accurate term to describe Israel's (and/or Zionism's) relationship to the Palestinians?
Is terrorism, genocide, pure evil and all out war accurate to describe the October 7, 2023 attack on Israel by Hammas?
100%, without a doubt.
Is terrorism, genocide, pure evil and all out war accurate to describe the October 7, 2023 attack on Israel by Hammas?
100%, without a doubt.
You've chosen to change the subject rather than answer the question. Israeli Jewish settler-colonialism has been going on for much longer than the October 7, 2023 attack on Israel by Hamas,
_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.
21 Dec 2024, 4:28 am
Mona Pereth wrote:
123autism wrote:
1. Settler-colonialism has a historical context. It generally refers to Europeans coming to North America and colonizing the lands, though it doesn't have to refer to this exclusively.
Settler-colonialism is a set of group behaviors. See the Wikipedia article on settler-colonialism.
Settler-colonialism isn't something done just by Europeans, or even just by European-descended white people. For example, Morocco, a country in north Africa, is currently doing settler-colonialism in Western Sahara, at the expense of indigenous Sahrawis.
This is why I said: It generally refers to Europeans coming to North America and colonizing the lands, though it doesn't have to refer to this exclusively
123autism wrote:
Settlers are not native to the lands they settle in. Some people lacking in critical thinking abilities assume that all white people are settlers. It's a moronic way of looking at the world. Some of these people are elected officials, including my own elected city council representative who indirectly referred to me as a settler. It's laughable.
Calling you, personally, a settler, is indeed sloppy wording. It would be more accurate to say that many of us white folks, here in the Americas, are descended from settlers.
I disagree. You're an American if you're an American. I'm a Canadian. It's unnecessary to call someone a descendent of a settler. Frankly, it's irrational unless you are trying to push an agenda and/or support your beliefs, which it seems you are.
The entire settler conversation is divisive. I am a Canadian. I will always be a Canadian. Call me a settler or descendent of a settler and you lose my respect.
123autism wrote:
3. This is a comment made to support a world view. I would say it is inappropriate because Israel was created to give Jewish people a homeland after WW2 where over 6 million Jews died in the holocaust.
Things would have been much better if more countries had welcomed more Jewish refugees as immigrants during and before World War II. Then the Nazis would not have been able to kill six million Jews in the first place. Unfortunately there was a lot of anti-Jewish bigotry in the U.S.A. at that time, and in other Western countries too.
But there is no intrinsic right to a "homeland." There are plenty of ethnic groups that don't have "homelands," and there is no internationally-recognized right to create one by displacing another group.
Israel is a state and I expect it to remain a state.
123autism wrote:
The conflict between Jewish peoples and Palestinians has been going on for centuries as far as I understand.
Nope. Only for a little over one hundred years.
Before then, there were some Jews who lived in Palestine (which then was part of the Ottoman Empire) and got along fine with their Muslim and Christian neighbors, at least for the most part. Living under Muslim rule was not ideal for these Jews, but it was a lot better than the way Jews had been treated for centuries in Christian Europe.
Trouble between Jews and other folks in Palestine began in the early 1900's, when it became clear that the newly-arriving Zionist Jews weren't just ordinary immigrants but intended to take over the land and displace the indigenous Palestinians.
123autism wrote:
Let's expand on the original question which asks Is "settler-colonialism" an accurate term to describe Israel's (and/or Zionism's) relationship to the Palestinians?
Is terrorism, genocide, pure evil and all out war accurate to describe the October 7, 2023 attack on Israel by Hammas?
100%, without a doubt.
Is terrorism, genocide, pure evil and all out war accurate to describe the October 7, 2023 attack on Israel by Hammas?
100%, without a doubt.
You've chosen to change the subject rather than answer the question. Israeli Jewish settler-colonialism has been going on for much longer than the October 7, 2023 attack on Israel by Hamas,
I'm addressing something very relevant to the subject.
