Reason and God

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I've noticed many people posting statements such as this...

If I ever believe in God, I will have to believe based on the evidence available to me and my own reason, not because someone tells me to believe it!

In response, I've noticed Christians protesting that you can reach belief in God based on the evidence available and reason, but that Atheists or Agnostics just aren't willing to see the evidence.

I'm a Christian and don't think it is possible for anyone to reach a belief in God based on the evidence and reason. I'm not saying reason has nothing to do with faith in God once I have that faith, but the faith itself is non-rational. By that I mean that there is no way to choose between God and not God except by a leap of faith. Having been an Atheist before, I know that the very same evidence can both support and destroy faith depending on how I've already chosen to believe or disbelieve.

Belief in God by pure reason creates a paradox because then belief would be our own achievement, we could save ourselves. It would be unfair and unjust because only the very few well educated people would be able to have that salvation.

I agree that belief in G!d is about faith. There are justifications for those who believe or wish to convince themselves to believe, but there is no proof. However I don't think there's anything wrong with faith.

I completely agree with you both. The evidence that exists has to be interpreted within a certain context and since there is no objective, self evident and infallible context a leap of faith is necessary whether there is any real evidence or not.

Even a miracle can be understood as the works of the Devil and does not necessarily prove there is a God.

Actually existence of God can be deduced quite easy,problem is just what this 'God' actually is,or better to say how do you define it.

Monotheistic notion of God creator that is separate from its creation is actually logically paradox in itself,and it cannot be proven in any rational sense.
On other hand Pantheistic notion of God can be justified and even defined in rational sense.

Now...I mostly stick to definition of God as 'highest being' and 'being that have mind higher then our own'.

Both definitions can be explained in rational sense.
And through these definitions we can see what kind of relationship is between man and God.


My reasons are based partially in my answers in this post:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/modules.php? ... ic&t=41511

And through Pantheistic explanation of God also some claims of traditional religion can be proofed as well...such as:

1.Immortality of soul
2.God's omnipresence
3.Nature of good and evil
4.Relationship between man and God

P.S

Also it is important to avoid flawed arguments of the past about God's existence such as:
1.God as first cause.
2.God as highest idea (Ontological argument).
3.Intelligent design.

..Simply because they were already fully debunked by Immanuel Kant in 18 century.

I prefer the term irrational, but yeah, I'll agree with that...

I am quite interested in what you have to say, but I don't understand most of it. I don't understand if you are talking in metaphors and if (in some places) you are talking about semantics or what, and the proofs you talk about aren't described.

Witt,

I'm not sure if you were speaking of a particular expression of monotheism or generalizing monotheism but it would be fallacious to say that monotheism is a Creator G!d separate from creation. That would work for deism.

Yes,I haven't described them...yet.


Ok here it goes....

God exist because:

1.There is only existence,non-existence does not exist.Therefore existence cannot be turned into non-existence.

2.I exist.

Now these two 'reasons' are probably confusing,but here are explanations....

If existence exist (basic tautology),therefore everything that exist must continue to exist in one way or another,and can never cease to exist (as beings).
I exist...and I have mind.Therefore existence as totality have mind as well.

Since existence(being) is what underlies all categories (who are changeable),everything that exist is united in existence as such.
That unification is "The Absolute" or "God".
We are part of God,and God exist through us...and all other existing things.

Now,although we are temporary as individuals,we can never cease to exist,we can only change categories of existence.
Existence as such is eternal and beyond time,since time is just one category of existence.

Therefore:

1.God exist,since he is existence as such ("I am what I am").
2.God is Absolute or unity of all individual existing things.
3.God is not omnipotent,since there is nothing outside God towards which God can be omnipotent to.
4.God is omnipresent,since God is everything that exists.
5.Since God is eternal and since God is unification of all that exists,that also include existence of all individual minds(human and non-human alike),and therefore God's mind is greater than all our minds.
6.We participate in God(based on 2)
7.God is both good and evil,since both good and evil exist.
8.We continue to exist after our deaths,since death is end of body functions,not of our existence as such.
9.God is not separate from creation,since God is creation(and therefore when 'creates',he just create within himself).
10.God is not 'He' it's 'WE'.(based on 6)

You're correct, but what is not mentioned here is the spiritual -- which is the whole ballgame. Faith in God is indeed a blind mental leap. But it is also an informed spiritual decision -- you feel a powerful, articulate leading toward belief. It's not taking a flying leap into utter blackness; it's hearing Someone say, to your heart, "Trust me. Follow me", and believing that Person.

Witt, I am a pantheist, but I also call myself an atheist becaue the pantheistic definition of god is so different than any ordinary theistic definiton that it might as well not exist.

As for 'us' continuing to exist - well, thermodynamically that is true; however, the continued existence of the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen et.all that make up my body and cells does not, to me, equal the continued existence of 'me,' as a separate, thinking entity.

As I said,individual existing things are temporary,but existence as such is not.
Since God is beyond time,but contains time as well in itself,therefore your current existence,together with time in which you are living- exist in eternity.

Second,as many people you identify yourself with your body.
But its funny when I hear people saying "My body"...that implies something that own this body.

But just for you....a quote from Epicurus:



And since we always exist,there is no such thing as 'death',there is only change of form of our existence.

I think what is not mentioned is the psychological ... you -for instance- were just talking about a Christian record you used to listen to when you were young ... I am sure that kind of experience embeds itself deep into your mind - if I had that record and lived in the US I would now be posting on this site on your side Ragtime - imagine that ! !

I like Witt's 'beliefs', they seem to be his own.

For me the fact that all 'Christians' / 'Muslims' etc... believe the same thing - well it's not so much about 'belief' as it is about coersion and community pressure, there is no spirituality involved, seems to me.

Let me play with your analogy a little... How about the fact that most people believe jumping off a cliff without any safety gear is something to be avoided? In that, they have consensus, but it's based on an external, observed fact.

The spirit is not a 3-dimensional physical part of the brain. You see everything in a maximum of four-dimensional terms, while I'm talking about something in a greater dimension. Therefore, you're assuming what I mean must be something in the only dimensions you see. It's like always having looked at the world through only one eye, and having three dimensions verbally explained to you -- it doesn't translate. You may get some mental grasp, but nothing that will help you visually perceive depth.
Well, just the same, I'm talking about a depth within which non-spiritual people cannot discern.

Ok ... so most people do avoid jumping off cliffs. Most people avoid snakes. Most people subject to religious pressure from their community end up following that 'religion'.

Not sure if you waited for me to finish appending my post (check back if not), but...

Why do you argue with me? Do you think I'll become convinced?

Apparently not.