Essay on how the media reports on the War in Gaza

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MaxE
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17 Aug 2024, 1:21 pm

https://www.truthaboutthreats.com/p/time-for-an-honest-update-on-the

Too much to copy and paste.

You can agree or disagree with this gentleman's take on the subject, but I challenge anyone to find anything offensive here. I'll admit a degree of sympathy. He hates Netanyahu but doesn't hate Israel, and would seem to be (like me) a non-Jewish man who married a Jewish woman and had Jewish children, although in his case the marriage only lasted 28 years (so sad it had to end after so long!).


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TwilightPrincess
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17 Aug 2024, 1:55 pm

It seems to be an extremely biased article that was written all the way back at the beginning of March. All of the sources he uses are from October and November.

He fails to outline the antagonistic behavior Israel has engaged in since its conception.

Quote:
As it pertains to Israel and my interest, I am the first to admit a half-century love affair with the nation or at least the concept of the nation. This has not changed, but with Bibi/ PM Netanyahu as their leader, she has slipped dramatically from her roots.
The problem started long before Netanyahu’s administration.

He also claims that Israel is not committing genocide because they warn people before they attack. I think the horrific behavior Israel has engaged in, including the massive amount of civilian casualties and many war crimes demonstrate that that’s nonsense.



Jakki
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17 Aug 2024, 2:52 pm

That. read like a pretty well informed point of veiw. :D but i did notice ,it seemed like he wished to distinguish Israelis from other Arabs .in their status..but perhaps , i read too much into it ...... :roll: 8O...
And in defference to TP, I did fail to pay attention to the dates the articles were written.....And it IS important to note tjis dyfunctional relationship the Israelis had with their servants from Palestine .
( as afmittedly was aware that many Palestinians worked for more financially secure Israelis as house help and etc) Having to cross Israeli checkpoints daily to get any work.. From my earlier reading concerning Israeli checkpoints.. :(


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Last edited by Jakki on 17 Aug 2024, 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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17 Aug 2024, 3:00 pm

I agree with what Twilight wrote.

And also what could be interpret as offensive is the comparison of, as he wrote, Russia's genociadal war against Ukraine and Israel's war in Gaza. According to UNRIC from 2022 and a year forward about 10 000 ukrainian civilians have been killed. In just 9 months does Lancet, a medical per-reviewed journal, estimated (conservative estimation) about 186 000 civilians have been killed.

I also believe he fails to reach his own standard of what he believes truth to be. He cites the Guardian when it suits his narrative, but at the same time mainstream media are not to be trusted. And actions (the aid from the US) was widely questioned and described as ineffective.


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MaxE
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17 Aug 2024, 3:32 pm

According to Wikipedia at least, 39,677 civilians have been killed, so I question your numbers. I'm not trying to defend the death of innocent people, but let's at least try for some accuracy. I'm thinking you may be citing the number of casualties, many of whom are probably suffering horribly, but technically they aren't yet dead.


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Carbonhalo
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17 Aug 2024, 3:33 pm

Lots of opinion, no substance.

It doesn't deflect my impression we should start slinging nukes and get this planet to it's closing credits.



TwilightPrincess
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17 Aug 2024, 3:41 pm

MaxE wrote:
According to Wikipedia at least, 39,677 civilians have been killed, so I question your numbers. I'm not trying to defend the death of innocent people, but let's at least try for some accuracy. I'm thinking you may be citing the number of casualties, many of whom are probably suffering horribly, but technically they aren't yet dead.

Quote:
The accumulative effects of Israel’s war on Gaza could mean the true death toll could reach more than 186,000 people, according to a study published in the journal Lancet.

According to Gaza’s Ministry of Health, more than 38,000 Palestinians have been killed since Israel launched its military offensive on October 7 in the wake of deadly Hamas attacks.

The study pointed out that the death toll is higher because the official toll does not take into account thousands of dead buried under rubble and indirect deaths due to destruction of health facilities, food distribution systems and other public infrastructure.

Conflicts have indirect health implications beyond the direct harm from violence, the study said, and even if the Gaza war ends immediately, it will continue to cause many indirect deaths in the coming months and years through things like diseases.

The study said the death toll is expected to be far larger given that much of Gaza’s infrastructure has been destroyed; there are shortages of food, water and shelter; and the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees has seen its funding cut.

“In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths,” it said.

After applying a “conservative estimate” of four indirect deaths per one direct death, “it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186,000 or even more deaths could be attributable” to the Gaza war, the study found.

Such a number would represent almost 8 percent of Gaza’s pre-war population of 2.3 million.

The Lancet study noted that Israeli intelligence services, the UN and the World Health Organization all agree that claims of data fabrication levelled against the Palestinian authorities in Gaza over its death toll are “implausible”.

It pointed out that the toll is likely much higher because the destruction of infrastructure in Gaza has made it extremely difficult to maintain a count that is not lower than the actual death toll.

“Documenting the true scale is crucial for ensuring historical accountability and acknowledging the full cost of the war. It is also a legal requirement,” it said.

The study pointed out that the International Court of Justice said in interim rulings in January in a genocide case brought against Israel that it needs to “take effective measures to prevent the destruction and ensure the preservation of evidence related to allegations of acts” under the Genocide Convention.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2024 ... study-says

Link to study in Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext



Last edited by Cornflake on 17 Aug 2024, 4:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.: Fixed malformed link for The Lancet

MaxE
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17 Aug 2024, 3:42 pm

Carbonhalo wrote:
It doesn't deflect my impression we should start slinging nukes and get this planet to it's closing credits.

Why the rush?


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naturalplastic
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17 Aug 2024, 7:02 pm

Carbonhalo wrote:
Lots of opinion, no substance.

It doesn't deflect my impression we should start slinging nukes and get this planet to it's closing credits.


Nuke nuke nuke

Nuke of earth

nuke nuke nuke of earth...nuke of earrrrrth! :D

To THIS tune:


https://youtu.be/Qa88gqvXJMc



MaxE
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18 Aug 2024, 4:34 pm

So regarding the piece in The Lancet, I won't question its academic rigor. Their number may indeed be fairly accurate, although in that sort of situation numbers don't really mean all that much. The reason I chose a number I found in Wikipedia is just that they are crowd sourced so I expect what I find there to represent some sort of consensus.

However, drawing attention to a number much higher than the consensus number (if that's what it is) is an example of a phenomenon for which I don't know of a name, which is that in some situations, people will want to believe whatever statistic makes things appear the worst. For example, back when we had blizzards, the weather bureau might predict 6-10 inches of snow, but then somebody would read a weather blogger who had supposed access to less privileged information, or had an acquaintance in the Highway Department, who supposedly had good reason to believe there would actually be 18 inches or more. And of course, everybody believed those people because they assumed that "they" were withholding the "real" numbers.

Maybe some day we'll know the "truth". Maybe we never will.


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TwilightPrincess
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18 Aug 2024, 4:37 pm

The number of deaths may be more than 186,000:

Quote:
“In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths,” it said.

After applying a “conservative estimate” of four indirect deaths per one direct death, “it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186,000 or even more deaths could be attributable” to the Gaza war, the study found.

Whatever the case may be, the number is certainly higher than in the Wikipedia article due to unknown deaths (i.e. being buried in rumble or otherwise missing) and indirect deaths due to stuff like a lack of medical supplies for any number of health conditions.



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18 Aug 2024, 9:00 pm

Realistic casualty and death estimates are Hamas.


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19 Aug 2024, 5:18 pm

Thank you, Twilight. For the references. I was tired and lazy at the time.

My point was never to discuss the amount of dead or killed civilians. It was the specific language used to describe the two different wars that was my point. And that distinction could be offensive to some people. I used the number of killed civilians as it shows somewhat of an intent from the aggressor. Even if the number from Wikipedia would have been the true number, I still would have said it's an absurd thing of him to do. And some people could be offended by that. For him to differentiate the two wars, one genocidal and the other not.

I have a less deadly example but with similar point.
The reason I was tired when I wrote my previous post was because I've been away this weekend. I was studying to earn a coaching badge in a sport. We were many coaches from many different places.
One coach describe a situation with his team. He has an austitic girl on his team. A discontent is growing towards that girl from the rest of the team and some of the other coaches. They find her to be unengaged and not showing enough spirit/will.
I asked that coach, what does the girl feel. When you ask her, what does she say?
Which he responded: Oh, she likes it...she doesn't miss a practice. Her mother says she loves it.
Which made me respond: It sounds like you are doing a great job as coaches, but when you describe her feeling towards the sport/practice it doesn't sound like she's unengaged. I suggested they turn the question around. What are their expectations on her and are all those expectations reasonable. Maybe she never will meet all of their expectations and should she have to? Isn't it enough that she loves it.

In some ways I agree with the author of the essay. For example, in swedish media you can see differences in the covering. After the attack on the 7th October you could read about Hamas terror attack, horrendous and so on (I have no issue with that wording). But recently after IDF bomb a school, you could read - Israeli bomb school, 20 palestinian dead.
It's a stark contrast in language.
Language can create exclusions and hurt. Or inclusion and happiness if you lead with love.

My favourite moment from the Olympics. The two teams get into a heated argument. The DJ has his say on it.


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