Anti progressive Jews pile on cancelled progressive Jew

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ASPartOfMe
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01 Sep 2024, 12:15 pm

The pro-Israel crowd that delighted in Leifer’s cancellation played to Internet outrage, not the facts

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The shopworn journalists’ adage that if you’re upsetting everybody, you must be doing something right applies, in spades, to journalist and author Joshua Leifer.

A Brooklyn bookstore employee canceled his launch event last week for his new book, Tablets Shattered: The End of an American Jewish Century and the Future of Jewish Life, because he was to appear alongside a Zionist rabbi. The decision prompted a deluge of serves-you-rights, I-told-you-sos and jokes-on-yous from Leifer’s fellow Jews who object to his criticisms of Israel.

The employee of Powerhouse Arena bookstore took issue with the fact the Leifer was set to appear with his friend, Rabbi Andy Bachman, who has made comments defending Israel.

“We don’t want a Zionist on our stage,” the employee told Leifer.

If you thought Jews of all political stripes would unite and rush to Leifer’s defense against a clear act of discrimination, you’ve never been online. We Jews have become as indentured to the internet’s ruling outrage algorithms as everyone.

After news of the ban hit social media and various news outlets, the bookstore’s owner, Daniel Power, apologized and fired the employee, who he said acted without permission and against store policy.

But news of the lockout and the image of a hapless Leifer and Bachman standing outside their suddenly closed event space provoked a cackling roar of social media finger pointing from Jews who disagree with Leifer.

“I guess life comes at you fast when you spend your career making dizzying academic arguments against the existence of a Jewish state, only to be told, ‘Nice words, Jewboy, leave the store immediately,’ wrote Suzy Weiss in a Free Press essay entitled, “A Reality Check for Woke Jews.”

“Ha ha. An anti-Zionist Jew and a barely Zionist rabbi and they still don’t let you in,” tweeted the owner of an Israel-based PR firm.

Numerous people posted screenshots of a tweet Leifer wrote five years ago saying, “Boycotts, divestments and sanctions are peaceful strategies of resistance to oppression.”

“Care to revisit your priors?” tweeted one poster.

There were some noble responses, like that of Mizrahi Bookstore in Brooklyn, which sells used religious and secular Jewish books and instantly offered to host the event. But most of Leifer’s fellow Jews piled on with glee.

If you read Leifer’s book, all of the cruel snark from fellow Jews in response to his event cancellation underscores his key points, and makes Leifer’s voice even more important.

Despite what his critics suggest, Leifer does not ignore the antisemitism that is the root of, or has taken root in, the “Death to Israel” crowd.

“The reactions of some on the left to the October 7, 2023, attack revealed with disturbing clarity the extent to which antisemitic thinking had found a home in my own political camp, even among erstwhile allies,” he wrote. “Antisemitism on the left takes a different form than on the right, but it is no less real.”

“American Jewish life is perhaps more contentious, more incoherent, and more disorganized than at any point in the last seventy-five years,” he writes.

The three pillars that upheld a vibrant American Jewish life — Americanism, liberalism and Zionism — have cracked, according to Leifer. The belief in America’s promise and exceptionalism was shaken by the rise of right- and left-wing antisemitism. The post-war Jewish liberal consensus faltered in the face of neoconservatism from the right and more strident civil rights activism on the left, leaving Jews divided or ideologically adrift. And Zionism, which became the primary expression of American Jewish life and identity following Israel’s victory in the 1967 Six Day War, evolved into a source of deep division as Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and its recurrent wars in Gaza dragged on.

“What the American Jewish establishment fails to understand,” Leifer writes in Tablets Shattered is that far more than Hamas’s rockets, or left-wing pro-Palestinianism on U.S. campuses, the real threat to Israel’s survival is a return to the status-quo ante—to the undemocratic one-state reality. The October 7 attacks proved that the occupation-management paradigm is unsustainable and guarantees only the loss of future lives.

If you care about Israel, Israelis and American Jewish life, this is the core, uncomfortable truth. It may be that some of the anti-Israel crowd are funded by Iran or report to Chinese overlords. It’s true the campus protesters ignore atrocities against hundreds of thousands of innocents in Sudan, or against Uyghur Muslims in China. There’s a special place in hypocrisy hell for undergrads camping out against Israel in tents made in China.

But none of that changes the demographic and moral calculus that Israel faces, something that the Internet hyenas have failed to engage with.

The best hasbara in the world, the greatest army, the cleverest tweets, won’t change the immutable fact that 14 million Jews and Arabs live between the river and the sea, and no one is going anywhere, and the only road forward involves compromise.

It’s the message Vice President Kamala Harris delivered during her acceptance speech for the Democratic nomination for President — to thunderous applause — and it’s the message courageous Israelis and Palestinians want us American Jews to share.

“The overarching necessity to separate from the Palestinians remains as great as ever,” Gen. (Ret.) Yair Golan, one of the heroes of Oct. 7 and now the head of the Democratic Israel party, wrote this week in [ijHaaretz[/i], “and contrary to the common wisdom, the fundamental idea behind the Oslo Accords and the Gaza Disengagement was correct — the need to divide the land and separate from the Palestinians.”

Leifer makes that same point in his book’s conclusion, not as the anti-Zionist caricature he’s been turned into on social media — he is not anti-Zionist — but because that’s where logic and a true love of Israel inevitably leads.

Editors Note:
The rescheduled event was held in front of a sellout crowd at a different location and sales of the book have spiked.

The Free Press apologized to Leifer for calling him an anti zionist. Leifer says he was an anti zionist when he identified antizionism with being against occupation. He has not identified as an anti zionist for years.

Opinion=mine
This is a defeat for cancel culture in every which way you can imagine. That is a good thing.

This goes for autistics as well as Jews, when you are a very small minority you can not afford to be divided. At the same time a conformist community is also bad. In this era any internal disagreement will be overhyped, exploited, and give encouragement to your enemies. It is a very difficult if not impossible needle to thread.

Schadenfreude is a normal emotion in these type of situations. I understand the emotion. As a person who was saying the “wokeness” of racializing Jews would bad for Jews well before 10/7 and who was often assumed to be a racist or sheepie for that opinion, reading about all the shocked progressive Jews about the 10/7 blowback, the temptation to say “I told you so” was hard and at times impossible to resist. At the end of the day to antisemites we are all kikes.


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02 Sep 2024, 8:23 am

In this situation, the bookstore people still look worse to me. Although a lot of it has to do with semantics. I guess I'll have to admit that if a bookstore exists to flog a particular agenda, they shouldn't feel obligated to accommodate those who disagree. There is a similar sort of bookstore in Baltimore called Red Emma's. A customer was once harassed there simply for wearing a yarmulke, and that was well before 10/7.

The problem with semantics has mostly to do with the idea of Anti-Zionism. Pro-Palestinian commentators often equate Anti-Zionism with criticism of Israel. However, as Zionism is the basis for the foundation of the State of Israel, saying one is Anti-Zionist can be logically understood to mean one believes that the State of Israel shouldn't even exist. I am not saying that such people want a 2nd Holocaust, but they somehow seem to think that current citizens of Israel should vote their own state out of existence and hand it over to the UN to be disposed of as the UN sees fit. I will editorialize a little bit by saying I think that the culture of the UN has been hostile to Israel since the UN was founded, even though I've often seen the opinion expressed that the UN is somehow beholden to Israel, but I happen to believe the opposite. So such a vote on the part of Israelis is highly unlikely. Or else they assume the entire world will turn against Israel and the world powers e.g. NATO, China, Russia, Iran, and so forth will set aside their differences and terminate Israel by force. Unfortunately, for all you Anti-Zionists out there, neither of those two things is going to happen.

OTOH Jews, most of whom identify as Zionists, and particularly Israelis, criticize Israel or to be more specific Israel's political and military policy constantly. Just take a look at current events if you don't believe that. Unfortunately coming out as Anti-Zionist, you're saying that none of this actually matters because the State of Israel can't legitimately exist in any form anyway. At that point, you're preaching to the choir, but public discourse has gotten to a point where the average person can't see that. News coverage of the war in Gaza is limited to depictions of the suffering of civilians. When before has a war ever been covered this way?

Although few will agree, I happen to think there is a definite link between Anti-Zionism and traditional pre-WWII European Anti-Semitism. This does not mean that all Anti-Zionists are necessarily Anti-Semites, but whenever somebody with no personal ties to Palestine becomes obsessed by their hatred of Zionism, I can't help wondering whether they may be more Anti-Semitic than even they realize.


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02 Sep 2024, 9:03 am

The last sentence in the second to the last paragraph is idiotic.

Many wars are covered that way (ie was involving either ISIS or Boko Harum) focus the suffering of civilians.

Second what else IS there to cover about the Gaza War?

There have been no glorious battles between standing armies like Waterloo, or D-Day, or Okinawa.

Israel is making war on civilians...in retaliation for HAMAS making war on its civilians. All of Gaza has been pretty much flattened. Forty thousand Gazans have died so far. One and half percent of the population in less than one year.

The US lost one third OF one percent of its population killed in the four years of World War Two. So in less than one year Gaza has lost five times as many lives in proportion to its population as the US lost in all four years of WWII.

The IDF claims that some of those 40 thousand were HAMAS fighters. So some of the 40k can be classified as "soldiers and not civilians". But the suffering has only begun. With infrastructure gone Gaza will get more deaths from disease and starvation.

So...THATS the story to be covered. Its not some anti Semitic conspiracy forcing it to be covered that way (as you seem to be implying).

I suppose that you could say that the media could be more "even handed" by covering the suffering of theIsraeli hostages of HAMAS more. But the media doesnt have much access to what HAMAS does in its hidden tunnels.



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02 Sep 2024, 12:27 pm

MaxE wrote:
In this situation, the bookstore people still look worse to me. Although a lot of it has to do with semantics. I guess I'll have to admit that if a bookstore exists to flog a particular agenda, they shouldn't feel obligated to accommodate those who disagree. There is a similar sort of bookstore in Baltimore called Red Emma's. A customer was once harassed there simply for wearing a yarmulke, and that was well before 10/7.

The problem with semantics has mostly to do with the idea of Anti-Zionism. Pro-Palestinian commentators often equate Anti-Zionism with criticism of Israel. However, as Zionism is the basis for the foundation of the State of Israel, saying one is Anti-Zionist can be logically understood to mean one believes that the State of Israel shouldn't even exist. I am not saying that such people want a 2nd Holocaust, but they somehow seem to think that current citizens of Israel should vote their own state out of existence and hand it over to the UN to be disposed of as the UN sees fit. I will editorialize a little bit by saying I think that the culture of the UN has been hostile to Israel since the UN was founded, even though I've often seen the opinion expressed that the UN is somehow beholden to Israel, but I happen to believe the opposite. So such a vote on the part of Israelis is highly unlikely. Or else they assume the entire world will turn against Israel and the world powers e.g. NATO, China, Russia, Iran, and so forth will set aside their differences and terminate Israel by force. Unfortunately, for all you Anti-Zionists out there, neither of those two things is going to happen.

OTOH Jews, most of whom identify as Zionists, and particularly Israelis, criticize Israel or to be more specific Israel's political and military policy constantly. Just take a look at current events if you don't believe that. Unfortunately coming out as Anti-Zionist, you're saying that none of this actually matters because the State of Israel can't legitimately exist in any form anyway. At that point, you're preaching to the choir, but public discourse has gotten to a point where the average person can't see that. News coverage of the war in Gaza is limited to depictions of the suffering of civilians. When before has a war ever been covered this way?

Although few will agree, I happen to think there is a definite link between Anti-Zionism and traditional pre-WWII European Anti-Semitism. This does not mean that all Anti-Zionists are necessarily Anti-Semites, but whenever somebody with no personal ties to Palestine becomes obsessed by their hatred of Zionism, I can't help wondering whether they may be more Anti-Semitic than even they realize.


Unless the bookstore had reason to believe beforehand the employee would do what the employee did I can’t fault them.

I would say the “wokeness” with emphasis on group privilege has traditional anti Semitic tropes about nefarious Jewish power baked in. “Wokeness” is not exactly the same as antizionism even left wing anti zionism but there is a strong “woke” influence. The current anti zionist movement is post-woke? If you cancel zionists, dismiss concerns about expressions such as “From River to Sea” and “Global Intifada” you are not necessarily antisemitic but you are very tone deaf.

Debbie Downer prediction to follow
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I think eventually Israel will cease to exist. Nothing lasts forever I do not see Israel being an exception. While the world probably will not unite to invade Israel when Gen Z is running things unbearable pressure will be put on them. If the activists gain power America they will at least cut off all arms which Israel is very dependent on. There could be a blockade or no fly zone.

The questions to me is how long and how violent this process will take. Enough Palestinians have shown they are willing to bear horrific pain and fight against overwhelming odds for a 100 years now. The Palestinians terrorist theory has always been as European settler colonists they will eventually wear down. So far since Israelis feel they are native to the land it has not worked. To me whether the Israelis will wear down or fight to the last person is an open question. Israel at its beginning was a poor agrarian state made up heavily of people who had just survived the holocaust. Often in the first few decades they were largely cut off. They had to be resilient and adaptable. The Israel of today is the “start up nation” used to good things. For evidence that Israel will implode just look at todays news, or really the last two years. This is not the first time Israeli seem ready to implode. Before 10/7 there all this talk about not serving if Netenyahu stayed in power. That immediately was put to the side. When 10/7 happened the IDF was slow to respond but a lot of people including old ones went to the Gaza Envelope and saved a lot of lives. All protests are marked by massive Israeli flag waving.

I very much doubt the end of Israel as a Jewish state is going to resemble the end of The Troubles in Northern Ireland. It is going to be a bloody mess and a lot of very pent up revenge. Not every Palestinian but well more than enough.

It will be an event that will set off World Wide celebrations. 10/7 did to a degree.

As for diaspora Jews it won't be Holocaust 2.0 but it will make recent months seem like the good old days. Judaism will survive but it will be much diminished. While Judaism is not Zionism to many Jews and non Jews alike it is the same or close enough to not matter. By that point I assume that the dominant narrative will be that Zionism is a latter form of Nazism. Besides those Jews that will be in the closet you have a lot that will disown any associations with the religion and the culture.


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02 Sep 2024, 2:38 pm

MaxE wrote:
However, as Zionism is the basis for the foundation of the State of Israel, saying one is Anti-Zionist can be logically understood to mean one believes that the State of Israel shouldn't even exist. I am not saying that such people want a 2nd Holocaust, but they somehow seem to think that current citizens of Israel should vote their own state out of existence and hand it over to the UN to be disposed of as the UN sees fit.

It is my impression that most anti-Zionist Jews advocate that the current state of Israel be replaced by a single bi-national state with equal rights for all, in much the same way that South Africa finally renounced apartheid. Exactly how (and by whom) this transition would be managed is an issue to be decided if and whenever enough Israeli Jews are finally convinced (perhaps by sufficient international pressure, including pressure from the U.S.A.?) that the transition is necessary.


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02 Sep 2024, 2:56 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
I would say the “wokeness” with emphasis on group privilege has traditional anti Semitic tropes about nefarious Jewish power baked in.

... unless you are aware of the other sources of the U.S.A.'s support for Israel besides wealthy Jewish lobbyists.

For example, Christian Zionists, some of whom are very wealthy too, vastly outnumber Jewish Zionists. (See separate thread on Christian Zionism.)

Many anti-Zionist leftists don't seem to be fully aware of Christian Zionism. But even these leftists tend to analyze Zionism (and the U.S. government's support for same) in terms of how they see it as serving the interests of U.S./Western imperialism, rather than as just the creation of a bunch of wealthy Jewish lobbyists.

My point here is not to deny that anti-Jewish bigotry exists in leftist circles. Of course it exists. But it is not necessarily "baked in," and it can be resisted within an anti-Zionist leftist context.


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02 Sep 2024, 3:49 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I would say the “wokeness” with emphasis on group privilege has traditional anti Semitic tropes about nefarious Jewish power baked in.

... unless you are aware of the other sources of the U.S.A.'s support for Israel besides wealthy Jewish lobbyists.

For example, Christian Zionists, some of whom are very wealthy too, vastly outnumber Jewish Zionists. (See separate thread on Christian Zionism.)

Many anti-Zionist leftists don't seem to be fully aware of Christian Zionism. But even these leftists tend to analyze Zionism (and the U.S. government's support for same) in terms of how they see it as serving the interests of U.S./Western imperialism, rather than as just the creation of a bunch of wealthy Jewish lobbyists.

My point here is not to deny that anti-Jewish bigotry exists in leftist circles. Of course it exists. But it is not necessarily "baked in," and it can be resisted within an anti-Zionist leftist context.

In the US, support for Israel is not restricted to some wealthy Jewish cabal or extreme Christian millennialists. If it were, people like Joe Biden and John Fetterman wouldn't be pro-Israel.


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02 Sep 2024, 4:12 pm

MaxE wrote:
In the US, support for Israel is not restricted to some wealthy Jewish cabal or extreme Christian millennialists. If it were, people like Joe Biden and John Fetterman wouldn't be pro-Israel.

I agree that "support for Israel is not restricted to some wealthy Jewish cabal or extreme Christian millennialists".

However, public policy isn't determined just by majority opinion. There's a difference between being merely sympathetic to a cause and feeling strongly about it enough to join organizations or donate money. Organized political movements can have influence out of proportion to their numbers, and a very LARGE organized political movement can have even more influence.

Most Americans have tended to be sympathetic to Israel, but most Americans do NOT belong to or give money to Zionist organizations.

However, there do exist LARGE Zionist organizations (not just "wealthy cabals"), and the largest of these, by far, are the Christian ones.

EDIT: When political commentators talk about Zionism as an organized political movement, the focus tends to be on "wealthy cabals" like AIPAC. But there are plenty of other, larger, more-grassroots Zionist organizations too, both Jewish and Christian. What makes Zionism such a powerful political movement, here in the U.S.A., is the combination of all these organizations.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 02 Sep 2024, 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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02 Sep 2024, 4:35 pm

I honestly don't know much about Christian Zionists, but I should address another concept that is at least implied by all this, which is that wealthy people, Jewish or otherwise, automatically support right-wing causes. I won't go into specifics, but I can see how some wealthy Jews may support or have supported AIPAC simply because they support Israel, but that doesn't necessarily mean they love Netanyahu. I should point out here that supporting Israel doesn't necessarily equate with supporting Netanyahu. Netanyahu and his supporters want you to think that's true, but it simply isn't.


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02 Sep 2024, 4:43 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I would say the “wokeness” with emphasis on group privilege has traditional anti Semitic tropes about nefarious Jewish power baked in.

... unless you are aware of the other sources of the U.S.A.'s support for Israel besides wealthy Jewish lobbyists.

For example, Christian Zionists, some of whom are very wealthy too, vastly outnumber Jewish Zionists. (See separate thread on Christian Zionism.)

Many anti-Zionist leftists don't seem to be fully aware of Christian Zionism. But even these leftists tend to analyze Zionism (and the U.S. government's support for same) in terms of how they see it as serving the interests of U.S./Western imperialism, rather than as just the creation of a bunch of wealthy Jewish lobbyists.

My point here is not to deny that anti-Jewish bigotry exists in leftist circles. Of course it exists. But it is not necessarily "baked in," and it can be resisted within an anti-Zionist leftist context.


While I am aware of Christian Zionism I was replying to MaxE’s statement “Although few will agree, I happen to think there is a definite link between Anti-Zionism and traditional pre-WWII European Anti-Semitism.” Christian Zionists are by definition Zionists so why would I bring them in to reply about Anti Zionism?

I do think and I always have thought that the particular form of leftism I call wokeness has traditional antisemitism baked in. Combine a belief system where whites are considered automatically unfairly privileged in a place and time where Jews are considered white. Add to that a belief that Israel should not and never should have existed because they are European settler colonialists it becomes very difficult to not bleed in traditional Jews have too much power gained by nefarious means antisemitism.

I am not saying all “woke” people are antisemites. I am saying their core belief system makes it easy for them to say and do antisemitic things while fully believing they are not antisemitic but purely anti zionist. That is not counting how easy it is to use anti zionism as a cover for their anti semitism.


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02 Sep 2024, 4:47 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
I would say the “wokeness” with emphasis on group privilege has traditional anti Semitic tropes about nefarious Jewish power baked in.

... unless you are aware of the other sources of the U.S.A.'s support for Israel besides wealthy Jewish lobbyists.

For example, Christian Zionists, some of whom are very wealthy too, vastly outnumber Jewish Zionists. (See separate thread on Christian Zionism.)

Many anti-Zionist leftists don't seem to be fully aware of Christian Zionism. But even these leftists tend to analyze Zionism (and the U.S. government's support for same) in terms of how they see it as serving the interests of U.S./Western imperialism, rather than as just the creation of a bunch of wealthy Jewish lobbyists.

My point here is not to deny that anti-Jewish bigotry exists in leftist circles. Of course it exists. But it is not necessarily "baked in," and it can be resisted within an anti-Zionist leftist context.


While I am aware of Christian Zionism I was replying to MaxE’s statement “Although few will agree, I happen to think there is a definite link between Anti-Zionism and traditional pre-WWII European Anti-Semitism.” Christian Zionists are by definition Zionists so why would I bring them in to reply about Anti Zionism?

I tried to do some quick research on Christian Zionism but from what I could find, it seems a slippery concept to get one's brain around. It seems some of the same people have also sent missionaries to the Middle East to try to convert both Jews and Muslims. I really don't know how the "typical" Christian in America thinks about this, but the Christian Zionists being held responsible for the fact that the US government has not embraced a pro-Palestinian agenda look to me like extreme dogmatists, and if anything I see the influence of such people declining, even most of Trumps' supporters don't much go for that sort of thing.


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02 Sep 2024, 4:49 pm

MaxE wrote:
I honestly don't know much about Christian Zionists, but I should address another concept that is at least implied by all this, which is that wealthy people, Jewish or otherwise, automatically support right-wing causes.

I wouldn't say that wealthy people automatically support right wing causes. Some wealthy people support left-leaning causes, and some are apolitical. But many right wing causes do tend to receive lots of support from wealthy people, and some right wing causes receive lots of support from not-so-wealthy people too.

MaxE wrote:
I won't go into specifics, but I can see how some wealthy Jews may support or have supported AIPAC simply because they support Israel, but that doesn't necessarily mean they love Netanyahu. I should point out here that supporting Israel doesn't necessarily equate with supporting Netanyahu.

Agreed. Zionists are not a monolith. There have long been, for example, left-leaning Zionists who support the two-state solution.


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02 Sep 2024, 5:01 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
While I am aware of Christian Zionism I was replying to MaxE’s statement “Although few will agree, I happen to think there is a definite link between Anti-Zionism and traditional pre-WWII European Anti-Semitism.” Christian Zionists are by definition Zionists so why would I bring them in to reply about Anti Zionism?

My point is this:

1) Those anti-Zionists who do promote anti-Jewish bigotry tend to claim that U.S. support for Israel is due solely, or at least primarily, to the machinations of a cabal of wealthy Jews.

2) The above claim, by anti-Jewish bigots, is false. There are plenty of other sources of organized, active support for Israel -- including organized, active support from non-Jews -- as well as general popular sympathy.


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02 Sep 2024, 5:35 pm

MaxE wrote:
I tried to do some quick research on Christian Zionism but from what I could find, it seems a slippery concept to get one's brain around.

Christian Zionism is not a monolith. There are several different kinds of Christian Zionism. See this thread for details and a variety of sources. (See links in various posts in that thread, not just the first post, which contains links to info about just one of the types of Christian Zionists.)

MaxE wrote:
It seems some of the same people have also sent missionaries to the Middle East to try to convert both Jews and Muslims.

That is indeed true of "some" (but not all) of the same people.

MaxE wrote:
I really don't know how the "typical" Christian in America thinks about this, but the Christian Zionists being held responsible for the fact that the US government has not embraced a pro-Palestinian agenda look to me like extreme dogmatists, and if anything I see the influence of such people declining, even most of Trumps' supporters don't much go for that sort of thing.

1) Even if a majority of Trump's supporters aren't evangelical Christian religious right wingers, the latter are still a very large, powerful, organized voting bloc, especially in the Bible Belt.

2) The more politically savvy Christian religious right wingers know how to make nonreligious-sounding arguments when doing outreach to the general public.

3) No one group is solely "responsible for the fact that the US government has not embraced a pro-Palestinian agenda." U.S. foreign policy is influenced by many factors. But surely one of the more significant factors is the influence of large, organized political movements.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 02 Sep 2024, 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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02 Sep 2024, 5:39 pm

MaxE wrote:
I tried to do some quick research on Christian Zionism but from what I could find, it seems a slippery concept to get one's brain around. It seems some of the same people have also sent missionaries to the Middle East to try to convert both Jews and Muslims. I really don't know how the "typical" Christian in America thinks about this, but the Christian Zionists being held responsible for the fact that the US government has not embraced a pro-Palestinian agenda look to me like extreme dogmatists, and if anything I see the influence of such people declining, even most of Trumps' supporters don't much go for that sort of thing.

A lot of it is about Jews needing to be in Israel for the rapture to happen. The part a lot of Christian Zionists and Israelis who accept their “love” don’t talk about is the belief that when rapture occurs Jews as unbelievers will be left behind. As far as the Israelis are concerned since they don’t believe in the rapture they are ripping off a bunch of fools big time.


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02 Sep 2024, 8:42 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
Agreed. Zionists are not a monolith. There have long been, for example, left-leaning Zionists who support the two-state solution.

I have no problem with the concept of the 2-state solution. However it's a non-starter for Palestinians so what's the point of bringing it up?


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