Page 1 of 3 [ 33 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

kokopelli
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,906
Location: amid the sunlight and the dust and the wind

02 Dec 2024, 10:47 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
I don't consider either side in that to be clean.

Nor do I. But one does not need to approve of Hamas in order to disapprove of Israel's extremely disproportionate response in Gaza (using weapons that have continued to be supplied by the U.S. government).

kokopelli wrote:
That said, I have never been comfortable about the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty, but as evil as their attack was, they still pale compared to many of their enemies in that region.

Please start a separate thread if you want to discuss the long-ago incident involving the USS Liberty. Ditto if you want to detail the evils of Hamas (apart from the current war and its beginnings), or if you want to discuss the evils of various nearby Arab or Muslim governments and/or militias. This thread is about Israel's war on Gaza.


In other words, you want to discuss this in a manner that is entirely devoid of any and all historical context.

Don't try to pretend that it wasn't Hamas who attacked Israel. Israel has the right to defend it self from Hamas aggression. Sure, Israel isn't completely pure, but Hamas is far less pure.


_________________
[email protected]


kokopelli
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,906
Location: amid the sunlight and the dust and the wind

03 Dec 2024, 2:45 am

It seems to me that Hamas attack on Israeli was nothing more than a genocidal act of terrorism targeting both adult and children Israelis. I cannot fault Israeli for responding to that attack.

One thing that is interesting to me is that Israel is approximately 75% Jewish and 20% Arab. Hamas, on the other hand, is pretty much 99% Arab. That brings up a couple of obvious questions:
1) If Israel is genocidal, then when are they going to start murdering the 25% of Israelis who are not Jewish?
2) What would happen if a Jew attempted to join Hamas? It certainly seems possible that he might be murdered because of his race.


_________________
[email protected]


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,320
Location: New York City (Queens)

03 Dec 2024, 3:19 am

Trying to keep the thread Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza? on-topic, I've created this separate thread for discussion of the historical context of Israel's war on Gaza.

I will ask the moderator(s) to move some off-topic posts from that thread to here. I will then reply to some of those posts.

I've already discussed some aspects of the historical context in the following threads:

- What life is like for Palestinians
- Israel/Palestine and settler-colonialism
- Palestine/Israel: 2-state solution vs. 1 binational state?
- Israel/Palestine -- how could a one-state solution work?
- Critiques of Zionism by Jews
- Palestinian Christians
- Christian Zionism
- Israeli settler support infrastructure here in the U.S.A.
- Changes in how Palestinians/Arabs talk about Jews
- Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof

Everyone, feel free to discuss the historical context more generally here.

During the time I was creating the above-listed threads, I learned a lot about how awful the situation of Palestinians has been for lo these many decades. Here in the U.S.A., most people -- myself included -- have been pretty effectively shielded from learning about this throughout most of my lifetime.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


kokopelli
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,906
Location: amid the sunlight and the dust and the wind

03 Dec 2024, 6:27 am

You can't stand it if someone has a different opinion than yours?


_________________
[email protected]


Cornflake
Administrator
Administrator

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 69,022
Location: Over there

03 Dec 2024, 11:08 am

 ! Cornflake wrote:
Some posts, starting with the now somewhat mistimed opening post, were moved from the PPR thread "Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?" to this new thread.


_________________
Giraffe: a ruminant with a view.


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,320
Location: New York City (Queens)

03 Dec 2024, 11:34 am

kokopelli wrote:
You can't stand it if someone has a different opinion than yours?

The above is one of the posts Cornflake moved from the thread Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?

Please see my reply in the separate new thread Israel-Hamas war meta-discussion.

Thanks very much to Cornflake for moving the off-topic posts.


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,132
Location: Long Island, New York

03 Dec 2024, 12:38 pm

Both the Palestinians and Israeli Jews have plenty of legitimate historical and recent reasons to assume the other party wants to cleanse/genocide them. That is all the context one needs to know.

One side probably does have more legitimate reasons to assume that about the other side and that is on topic for this thread.


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,320
Location: New York City (Queens)

03 Dec 2024, 12:43 pm

kokopelli wrote:
In other words, you want to discuss this in a manner that is entirely devoid of any and all historical context.

Don't try to pretend that it wasn't Hamas who attacked Israel. Israel has the right to defend it self from Hamas aggression. Sure, Israel isn't completely pure, but Hamas is far less pure.

Here and again here I outlined a possible way that Israel could have defended itself very effectively without killing so many people or destroying so much civilian infrastructure.

Agreed that Hamas is far from "pure." Their 1988 charter was full of almost Hitler-level hatred of Jews. Their 2017 revised charter toned this down considerably, saying that their beef wasn't against Jews per se but only against Zionism. Of course, one can debate the extent to which this was a real change vs. just a cosmetic change.

Be that as it may:

1) Israel is far more powerful, militarily, than Hamas. Israel also has the backing of the world's foremost military power, the U.S.A.

2) The larger historical context is Israel's ongoing displacement of indigenous Palestinians, starting with the 1948 Nakba and continuing incrementally since then, especially since 1967.

3) Neither Hamas's 10/7/2023 attack nor its previous lesser attacks were unprovoked. All these attacks have been provoked by some combination of:

(a) Yet another round of evictions of Palestinians, in either East Jerusalem or the West Bank, to make way for still more Israeli Jewish settlers, and

(b) Israeli soldiers or government officials entering the Al Aqsa compound on the Temple Mount, in violation of international agreements. (Policing the Temple Mount is supposed to be the sole responsibility of the Jerusalem Waqf, staffed by the Jordanian government plus some people from the Palestinian Authority.)


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.


kokopelli
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,906
Location: amid the sunlight and the dust and the wind

03 Dec 2024, 2:26 pm

So you justify the violent murder of non-combatants, including women and children, if they have somehow been wronged?

There was no excuse whatsoever for Hamas attack on Israelis.


_________________
[email protected]


funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 29,386
Location: Right over your left shoulder

03 Dec 2024, 2:45 pm

kokopelli wrote:
So you justify the violent murder of non-combatants, including women and children, if they have somehow been wronged?

There was no excuse whatsoever for Hamas attack on Israelis.


There's no excuse for Israel's use of rape on detainees or turning Gaza into a concentration camp either.


_________________
I was ashamed of myself when I realised life was a costume party and I attended with my real face
"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell


kokopelli
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,906
Location: amid the sunlight and the dust and the wind

03 Dec 2024, 3:31 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
So you justify the violent murder of non-combatants, including women and children, if they have somehow been wronged?

There was no excuse whatsoever for Hamas attack on Israelis.


There's no excuse for Israel's use of rape on detainees or turning Gaza into a concentration camp either.


You are right. There is no excuse for Israel rape of detainees.

Neither is there any excuse for the Gazans during the Hamas brutal terrorist attack on Israel.


From https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181:
Quote:
Several people involved in collecting and identifying the bodies of those killed in the attack told us they had seen multiple signs of sexual assault, including broken pelvises, bruises, cuts and tears, and that the victims ranged from children and teenagers to pensioners.

Video testimony of an eyewitness at the Nova music festival, shown to journalists by Israeli police, detailed the gang rape, mutilation and execution of one victim.

Videos of naked and bloodied women filmed by Hamas on the day of the attack, and photographs of bodies taken at the sites afterwards, suggest that women were sexually targeted by their attackers.

Few victims are thought to have survived to tell their own stories.

...

Police have privately shown journalists a single horrific testimony that they filmed of a woman who was at the Nova festival site during the attack.

She describes seeing Hamas fighters gang rape a woman and mutilate her, before the last of her attackers shot her in the head as he continued to rape her.

...

In the video, the woman known as Witness S mimes the attackers picking up and passing the victim from one to another.

"She was alive," the witness says. "She was bleeding from her back."

She goes on to detail how the men cut off parts of the victim's body during the assault.

"They sliced her breast and threw it on the street," she says. "They were playing with it."

The victim was passed to another man in uniform, she continues.

"He penetrated her, and shot her in the head before he finished. He didn't even pick up his pants; he shoots and ejaculates."

One man we spoke to from the festival site said he heard the "noises and screams of people being murdered, raped, decapitated".

...

Israel's Women's Empowerment Minister, May Golan, told the BBC that a few victims of rape or sexual assault had survived the attacks, and that they were all currently receiving psychiatric treatment.

"But very, very few. The majority were brutally murdered," she said. "They aren't able to talk - not with me, and not to anyone from the government [or] from the media."

Videos filmed by Hamas include footage of one woman, handcuffed and taken hostage with cuts to her arms and a large patch of blood staining the seat of her trousers.

In others, women carried away by the fighters appear to be naked or semi-clothed.

Multiple photographs from the sites after the attack show the bodies of women naked from the waist down, or with their underwear ripped to one side, legs splayed, with signs of trauma to their genitals and legs.

"It really feels like Hamas learned how to weaponise women's bodies from ISIS [the Islamic State group] in Iraq, from cases in Bosnia," said Dr Cochav Elkayam-Levy, a legal expert at the Davis Institute of International Relations at Hebrew University.

"It brings me chills just to know the details that they knew about what to do to women: cut their organs, mutilate their genitals, rape. It's horrifying to know this."


Some of the victims were children. The article mentioned "girls of all ages" being raped.

Everyone committing rapes should be brought to justice regardless of their nationality, religion, or other factors.


_________________
[email protected]


Aspinator
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,358
Location: AspinatorLand

03 Dec 2024, 3:51 pm

I am fascinated by Jewish history especially the WWII era. First the US turned away 900 or so Jewish people who wanted to seek asylum from Nazi Germany. Otto Skorzeny ( the German who rescued Mussolini and was also known as the most dangerous man in WWII) established a special unit of the Waffen SS dealing with espionage and terrorism. He served 2 years in prison at the end of WWII and then was hired by the PLO to train its soldiers (including a young Yasser Arafat) . He then switched sides and was hired by the Israeli Mossad. The Mossad had put a death warrant on Skorzeny before hand when he was training the PLO. When Israel formed its own country in 1948 the Jewish families that had previously lived in Arab countries for generations were told they had to leave immediately and had to forfeit their lands. This is when I feel the hostilities between the Arabs and Israelis actually began. Both sides distrust each other and the Israeli invasion of Gaza is just the latest chapter.



kokopelli
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Nov 2017
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,906
Location: amid the sunlight and the dust and the wind

03 Dec 2024, 5:46 pm

Aspinator wrote:
I am fascinated by Jewish history especially the WWII era. First the US turned away 900 or so Jewish people who wanted to seek asylum from Nazi Germany. Otto Skorzeny ( the German who rescued Mussolini and was also known as the most dangerous man in WWII) established a special unit of the Waffen SS dealing with espionage and terrorism. He served 2 years in prison at the end of WWII and then was hired by the PLO to train its soldiers (including a young Yasser Arafat) . He then switched sides and was hired by the Israeli Mossad. The Mossad had put a death warrant on Skorzeny before hand when he was training the PLO. When Israel formed its own country in 1948 the Jewish families that had previously lived in Arab countries for generations were told they had to leave immediately and had to forfeit their lands. This is when I feel the hostilities between the Arabs and Israelis actually began. Both sides distrust each other and the Israeli invasion of Gaza is just the latest chapter.


Hamas started the latest round with their terroristic attack killing over 1,000 people at that music festival. You cannot blame the invasion on Israel -- Hamas brought it upon themselves and are entirely to blame.


_________________
[email protected]


ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,132
Location: Long Island, New York

03 Dec 2024, 10:41 pm

In talking about events during the 1940s noted Israeli historian Benny Morris has said the Nabka was a mixture of ethnic cleansing and the typical refugees created by war.

He also claimed the cleansing was a uniform policy but on an ad hoc basis by individual commanders. The country is still often run on an ad hoc basis.


_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman


Jakki
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2019
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,186
Location: Outter Quadrant

03 Dec 2024, 11:12 pm

kokopelli wrote:
Hamas started the latest round with their terroristic attack killing over 1,000 people at that music festival. You cannot blame the invasion on Israel -- Hamas brought it upon themselves and are entirely to blame.

This is the first time , Had heard that 1000 event goers were killed, thought Israel had reported a smaller number.?
but i do not have that info in front of me just now ..

If its a situation were the two peoples cannot live together install a UN force to police. And Disarm both sides.
Too many unjustly killed persons .


_________________
Diagnosed hfa
Loves velcro,
Quote:
where ever you go ,there you are


Mona Pereth
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Sep 2018
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,320
Location: New York City (Queens)

04 Dec 2024, 1:42 am

kokopelli wrote:
One thing that is interesting to me is that Israel is approximately 75% Jewish and 20% Arab.

Indeed. During the 1948 Nakba, the Israelis did not expel quite all the Palestinians/Arabs, although they did expel most of them. And, apparently, there was no systematic policy as to who got expelled vs. who was allowed to stay. This was left to the individual Israeli commanders to decide.

Christians -- especially in religiously significant cities like Nazareth -- were somewhat more likely to be allowed to stay than Muslims, other factors being equal. It would have been a public relations disaster for Israel, in the West, if all the Christians had been expelled from Nazareth, the town where Jesus grew up.

kokopelli wrote:
Hamas, on the other hand, is pretty much 99% Arab.

And Muslim, and Islamist. Hamas is an Islamist organization.

(But not all Palestinians/Arabs are Muslim, even in Gaza. There are three Christian churches in Gaza. See my thread on Palestinian Christians.)

kokopelli wrote:
That brings up a couple of obvious questions:
1) If Israel is genocidal, then when are they going to start murdering the 25% of Israelis who are not Jewish?

Probably not anytime soon. But they are only a small minority of Palestinians/Arabs. Other Palestinians, in Gaza (obviously), and in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and in Lebanon and other neighboring countries, are in much greater danger.

kokopelli wrote:
2) What would happen if a Jew attempted to join Hamas? It certainly seems possible that he might be murdered because of his race.

I don't think a Jew would be murdered merely for making such an unusual request, but the request would almost certainly be turned down, unless the Jew converted to Islam and was somehow able to convince Hamas officials that the conversion was sincere.

What is your point in asking this hypothetical question?


_________________
- Autistic in NYC - Resources and new ideas for the autistic adult community in the New York City metro area.
- Autistic peer-led groups (via text-based chat, currently) led or facilitated by members of the Autistic Peer Leadership Group.