Israel-Hamas war meta-discussion
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03 Dec 2024, 10:50 am
To the folks who insist on dragging my thread about Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza? off-topic:
No, my reason for wanting to keep that thread on-topic isn't that I "can't stand it if someone has a different opinion."
Different opinions are fine. I just want this discussion to be organized by topic, to make it easier to refer back to relevant threads on any given aspect of the situation.
The thread is part of a family of related threads, including the following:
- What life is like for Palestinians
- Israel/Palestine and settler-colonialism
- Palestine/Israel: 2-state solution vs. 1 binational state?
- Israel/Palestine -- how could a one-state solution work?
- Critiques of Zionism by Jews
- Palestinian Christians
- Christian Zionism
- Israeli settler support infrastructure here in the U.S.A.
- Changes in how Palestinians/Arabs talk about Jews
- Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof
to which I added the following new thread just last night, for more general discussion of the historical context:
- Historical context of Israel's war on Gaza
And Wrong Planet seems to have an informal policy of allowing the OP to define the topic of a thread. (Cornflake can clarify if he so chooses.)
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05 Dec 2024, 1:05 am
Here, in the thread Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?:
kokopelli wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
The funny thing is that my inclination is not to support Israel because I still blame them for their attack on the USS Liberty. For years, I criticized nearly everything that Israel did.
Then there is also their treatment of Christians in the area.
I am certainly not heavy biased toward Israel. In general, I tolerate them, but only because of their self defense from terrorists who would happily murder most or all of the Jews there.
That said, it is clear that in this case, Hamas is to blame for the attacks that brought all this on. They started this war and it really doesn't bother me if Israel finishes it. Hamas brought it upon themselves.
Then there is also their treatment of Christians in the area.
I am certainly not heavy biased toward Israel. In general, I tolerate them, but only because of their self defense from terrorists who would happily murder most or all of the Jews there.
That said, it is clear that in this case, Hamas is to blame for the attacks that brought all this on. They started this war and it really doesn't bother me if Israel finishes it. Hamas brought it upon themselves.
I've copied and quoted the above here, in the thread Historical context of Israel's war on Gaza, for topicality reasons. Everyone, if you respond to the above -- especially regarding kokopelli's stated feelings about Israel generally, apart from the current war -- please do so in that other thread.
You claim that I am biased and then "move" the topic elsewhere while removing your nonsensical claims?
Sheesh!
The thread containing the above-quoted message is specifically intended for discussion about the evidence for (and possibly against?) genocidal intent on the part of Israel.
Detailed discussions of your (or my, or anyone else's) feelings about Israel more generally are a separate topic. Hence the move.
Your post disputing the move is even more of a derail, which I am therefore replying to here.
Wrong Planet has an informal policy of allowing the OP (the person who started a given thread) to decide what is and is not on-topic for the thread. So far, Cornflake has supported my attempts to keep my threads on-topic. (Thanks very much, Cornflake!)
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kokopelli
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05 Dec 2024, 1:31 am
Mona Pereth wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
You claim that I am biased and then "move" the topic elsewhere while removing your nonsensical claims?
Sheesh!
Sheesh!
I've replied here, in the thread Israel-Hamas war meta-discussion.
I will ask Cornflake to move any and all further meta-discussion posts to that thread.
Talk about a loaded deck.
You're the biased one here.
Hamas started a war with a very violent terrorist attack and then when they are losing you come on here and whine about how unfair it is. In doing so, you are condoning the rape, torture, and murder of women and little girls.
funeralxempire
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05 Dec 2024, 11:09 am
kokopelli wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
kokopelli wrote:
You claim that I am biased and then "move" the topic elsewhere while removing your nonsensical claims?
Sheesh!
Sheesh!
I've replied here, in the thread Israel-Hamas war meta-discussion.
I will ask Cornflake to move any and all further meta-discussion posts to that thread.
Talk about a loaded deck.
You're the biased one here.
Hamas started a war with a very violent terrorist attack and then when they are losing you come on here and whine about how unfair it is. In doing so, you are condoning the rape, torture, and murder of women and little girls.
By this logic you're condoning Israel's use of rape against detainees.
Pot, kettle and all that.
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kokopelli
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05 Dec 2024, 11:19 am
funeralxempire wrote:
By this logic you're condoning Israel's use of rape against detainees
That is complete nonsense. Israelis have no more right to rape its opponents than its opponents have to rape Israelis.
funeralxempire
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05 Dec 2024, 11:20 am
kokopelli wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
By this logic you're condoning Israel's use of rape against detainees
That is complete nonsense. Israelis have no more right to rape its opponents than its opponents have to rape Israelis.
If you can support people who've engaged in rape without condoning rape why do you dishonestly insist that Mona condones rape?
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"Many of us like to ask ourselves, What would I do if I was alive during slavery? Or the Jim Crow South? Or apartheid? What would I do if my country was committing genocide?' The answer is, you're doing it. Right now." —Former U.S. Airman (Air Force) Aaron Bushnell
05 Dec 2024, 1:01 pm
Cornflake wrote:
Ok well I'll tell you instead - if you want to discuss these (or any other) conspiracy theories further, please do so in a separate new thread devoted to that specific topic.
This thread is intended for discussion of the evidence for (and possibly against?) Israel's genocidal intent in Gaza.
This thread is intended for discussion of the evidence for (and possibly against?) Israel's genocidal intent in Gaza.
I was going to leave this alone, but in light of everything I can't anymore. I'm sorry that you or the OP cannot see the very obvious connection to what I originally shared and the topic up for discussion. It seems to me that you and the OP either are unable, or more likely it seems, unwilling to recognize the connections within the pattern.
That 'conspiracy theory' is in the process of becoming very real while we watch, which logically gives it relevance. It states in very plain words what the intentions of Israel will be, complete and total destruction of any and all Palestinians in Gaza. That this attitude would only serve to eventually escalate the conflict to the point where mutually assured destruction is inevitable.
Netanyahu is a sadistic, hate filled man whose only goal is war. He desperately needs war in Gaza to grow and continue; that is the only way he is able to stay in power and avoid being formally tried for corruption. This means that he has become cornered into continuing the aggression no matter what others within or without of Israel thinks is best. It helps him that there are many Jews who hold old school beliefs that they are 'God's chosen people' and therefore view everyone else as Goyim, or subhuman beasts worthy only of being slaves or dead.
Don't worry, I'm done discussing this here. I prefer discussions with more respectful and open minded people.
05 Dec 2024, 3:24 pm
Here, in the thread Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?:
ShwaggyD wrote:
What if all these problems were planned long ago? I read something decades ago that, at the time, seemed far fetched but in todays light seems very possible.
Albert Pike Letter to Mazzini-The Illuminati Plan for 3 World Wars, August 15, 1871
Note that this was supposedly written decades before WW1 yet accurately describes what actually ended up happening. That makes the last part even more pertinent to this discussion.
While many believe the letter was a fake, todays world seems strikingly similar to what was written around 150 years ago.
Albert Pike Letter to Mazzini-The Illuminati Plan for 3 World Wars, August 15, 1871
Quote:
The following is a letter, that speculation claimed that Albert Pike wrote to Giuseppe Mazzini in
1871 regarding a conspiracy involving three world wars, that were planned in an attempt to take
over the world. The Pike letter to Giuseppe Mazzini was on display in the British Museum Library
in London until 1977. This letter has been claimed by many internet sites to reside in the British
Library in London, which denies the letter exists.
• Giuseppe Mazzini was an Italian revolutionary leader of the mid 1800s as well as the Director of the Illuminati
• Albert Pike (historical Masonic figure) was a 33rd degree Freemason, Occultist, Grand
Master and creator of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Masonic Scottish Rite Order
Following are apparently extracts from the letter, showing how Three World Wars have been planned for many generations.
"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used
in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."
"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine.
During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."
1871 regarding a conspiracy involving three world wars, that were planned in an attempt to take
over the world. The Pike letter to Giuseppe Mazzini was on display in the British Museum Library
in London until 1977. This letter has been claimed by many internet sites to reside in the British
Library in London, which denies the letter exists.
• Giuseppe Mazzini was an Italian revolutionary leader of the mid 1800s as well as the Director of the Illuminati
• Albert Pike (historical Masonic figure) was a 33rd degree Freemason, Occultist, Grand
Master and creator of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Masonic Scottish Rite Order
Following are apparently extracts from the letter, showing how Three World Wars have been planned for many generations.
"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used
in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."
"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine.
During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."
Note that this was supposedly written decades before WW1 yet accurately describes what actually ended up happening. That makes the last part even more pertinent to this discussion.
Quote:
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism
(the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other.
Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion… We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror
will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.
Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view.
This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
(the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other.
Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion… We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror
will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.
Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view.
This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
While many believe the letter was a fake, todays world seems strikingly similar to what was written around 150 years ago.
I replied:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Sounds to me like this alleged letter is most likely a hoax. Here is a relevant Reddit thread in r/AskHistorians.
"Supposedly" written before WW1. More likely, written more recently.
Grand conspiracy theories of history are not only unlikely, but also harmful. Please see the following threads here on WP:
- QAnon, Blood Libel, and the Satanic Panic
- Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof
Israel's behavior in Gaza this past year has been absolutely horrible. We need to continue building, here in the U.S.A., a mass movement against our government's unconditional support for Israel. To that end, the facts alone are horrible enough. No need to clutter the issue with grand conspiracy claims.
Quote:
Note that this was supposedly written decades before WW1 yet accurately describes what actually ended up happening.
"Supposedly" written before WW1. More likely, written more recently.
Grand conspiracy theories of history are not only unlikely, but also harmful. Please see the following threads here on WP:
- QAnon, Blood Libel, and the Satanic Panic
- Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof
Israel's behavior in Gaza this past year has been absolutely horrible. We need to continue building, here in the U.S.A., a mass movement against our government's unconditional support for Israel. To that end, the facts alone are horrible enough. No need to clutter the issue with grand conspiracy claims.
ShwaggyD then wrote:
ShwaggyD wrote:
I made no claims, in fact I mentioned my initial doubts and ended my post acknowledging the very real possibility that the letter was faked. I merely asked a legitimate question; what if it isn't. How much do you truly know about the history of Albert Pike and his role in freemasonry or Giuseppe Mazzini and his role as director of the Illuminati? Most people know little to nothing about these men and their roles in shaping the world during their lives.
I first read this over 20 years ago, and back then I recognized that there was a very real possibility that it was made up. Someone could have written it after WW2. That being said, knowing what I do about Pike and Mazzini, I also recognize that there is an equal chance that it is very real. Things are happening in todays world that appear to be following the blueprint laid out in the letter in regards to WW3. Trust me, I hope it is a fake but my own personal research has me thinking it very well might be a real plan after all.
I first read this over 20 years ago, and back then I recognized that there was a very real possibility that it was made up. Someone could have written it after WW2. That being said, knowing what I do about Pike and Mazzini, I also recognize that there is an equal chance that it is very real. Things are happening in todays world that appear to be following the blueprint laid out in the letter in regards to WW3. Trust me, I hope it is a fake but my own personal research has me thinking it very well might be a real plan after all.
I replied:
Mona Pereth wrote:
To ShwaggyD:
If you want to discuss these (or any other) conspiracy theories further, please do so in a separate new thread devoted to that specific topic.
This thread is intended for discussion of the evidence for (and possibly against?) Israel's genocidal intent in Gaza.
If you want to discuss these (or any other) conspiracy theories further, please do so in a separate new thread devoted to that specific topic.
This thread is intended for discussion of the evidence for (and possibly against?) Israel's genocidal intent in Gaza.
I should clarify here that by "conspiracy theories" I primarily meant grand conspiracy ideology -- the idea that some unified, continuously-existing centuries-old or even millenia-old shadowy elite group has more-or-less complete control over world events and is able to plan them out, in detail, decades or even centuries in advance.
Anyhow, here, Cornflake endorsed my request that discussion of conspiracy theories be kept out of the thread Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?
Then, today, ShwaggyD wrote here (if it hasn't been moved yet):
ShwaggyD wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
Ok well I'll tell you instead - if you want to discuss these (or any other) conspiracy theories further, please do so in a separate new thread devoted to that specific topic.
This thread is intended for discussion of the evidence for (and possibly against?) Israel's genocidal intent in Gaza.
This thread is intended for discussion of the evidence for (and possibly against?) Israel's genocidal intent in Gaza.
I was going to leave this alone, but in light of everything I can't anymore. I'm sorry that you or the OP cannot see the very obvious connection to what I originally shared and the topic up for discussion. It seems to me that you and the OP either are unable, or more likely it seems, unwilling to recognize the connections within the pattern.
That 'conspiracy theory' is in the process of becoming very real while we watch, which logically gives it relevance. It states in very plain words what the intentions of Israel will be, complete and total destruction of any and all Palestinians in Gaza. That this attitude would only serve to eventually escalate the conflict to the point where mutually assured destruction is inevitable.
Netanyahu is a sadistic, hate filled man whose only goal is war. He desperately needs war in Gaza to grow and continue; that is the only way he is able to stay in power and avoid being formally tried for corruption. This means that he has become cornered into continuing the aggression no matter what others within or without of Israel thinks is best. It helps him that there are many Jews who hold old school beliefs that they are 'God's chosen people' and therefore view everyone else as Goyim, or subhuman beasts worthy only of being slaves or dead.
Don't worry, I'm done discussing this here. I prefer discussions with more respectful and open minded people.
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05 Dec 2024, 7:20 pm
Now for my reply to ShwaggyD's latest post:
ShwaggyD wrote:
I was going to leave this alone, but in light of everything I can't anymore. I'm sorry that you or the OP cannot see the very obvious connection to what I originally shared and the topic up for discussion.
Yes there is a "connection" between these topics, insofar as you've proposed an alleged explanation for (what many of us perceive to be) Israel's genocidal behavior.
But the point of the thread Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza? isn't to discuss or debate about conceivable alleged explanations. The point of that thread is to discuss the evidence for (and possibly against) the idea that Israel has genocidal intent in the first place.
Discussion/debate about conceivable explanations is fine, but in a separate thread. On the other hand, in a thread devoted to discussing the evidence for (and possibly against) the idea that Israel has genocidal intent in the first place, it's a derailment.
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05 Dec 2024, 9:32 pm
Mona Pereth wrote:
Now for my reply to ShwaggyD's latest post:
Yes there is a "connection" between these topics, insofar as you've proposed an alleged explanation for (what many of us perceive to be) Israel's genocidal behavior.
But the point of the thread Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza? isn't to discuss or debate about conceivable alleged explanations. The point of that thread is to discuss the evidence for (and possibly against) the idea that Israel has genocidal intent in the first place.
Discussion/debate about conceivable explanations is fine, but in a separate thread. On the other hand, in a thread devoted to discussing the evidence for (and possibly against) the idea that Israel has genocidal intent in the first place, it's a derailment.
ShwaggyD wrote:
I was going to leave this alone, but in light of everything I can't anymore. I'm sorry that you or the OP cannot see the very obvious connection to what I originally shared and the topic up for discussion.
Yes there is a "connection" between these topics, insofar as you've proposed an alleged explanation for (what many of us perceive to be) Israel's genocidal behavior.
But the point of the thread Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza? isn't to discuss or debate about conceivable alleged explanations. The point of that thread is to discuss the evidence for (and possibly against) the idea that Israel has genocidal intent in the first place.
Discussion/debate about conceivable explanations is fine, but in a separate thread. On the other hand, in a thread devoted to discussing the evidence for (and possibly against) the idea that Israel has genocidal intent in the first place, it's a derailment.
Whatever. I first posted and you immediately became being dismissive of anything I said that you didn't agree with. Quite rude and disrespectful, especially when you want your posts to be respected. It is only after I called out the hypocrisy did you finally admit that my original post was in fact connected to the posted topic; you just didn't behave like you have any respect for the connection. You seem to me to be more obsessed with controlling the narrative of others and where we say it than what is said.
You cannot in any way prove that the alleged Pike letter I shared was false, but you insist it is anyways. I never insisted it was, I acknowledged such more than once, but I was and still am willing to admit that it might be real in light of the current state of affairs there and globally. I get it, you are unable of seeing there are 'conspiracy theories' that offer normally unseen connections and truths to things. Just know that just because you don't think something holds any truth doesn't mean they aren't true. An honest seeker of truth will find that his/her beliefs of truth can and will be challenged and sometimes proven wrong.
06 Dec 2024, 4:10 am
To ShwaggyD:
Do you not understand the difference between (1) discussing conceivable alleged causes of a given situation X and (2) discussing the evidence that situation X even exists (or does not exist) in the first place? Sure, they are "connected," insofar as they both pertain to situation X, but they are not the same thing. IMO they belong in separate threads, so that one discussion does not drown out the other.
Perhaps you just don't understand why some of us value thread topicality, or why concerns about thread topicality are traditionally commonplace on message boards such as Wrong Planet?
I do owe you an apology for one thing. I should not have voiced any arguments at all against your grand conspiracy claim (beyond just briefly saying that I don't agree with it) in the very same thread (Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?) where I also declared your conspiracy claim to be off-topic in the thread. I now see why this came across as "hypocritical" and disrespectful. It would probably have been better if I had gone ahead and created a new thread myself, immediately, on the topic of grand conspiracy claims, and voiced my specific disagreements there, and then directed you to the new thread from the original thread.
I will belatedly create the above-mentioned new thread soon.
Anyhow, on yet another related topic you also posted the following video, which does look worthwhile:
ShwaggyD wrote:
Thanks for posting this. I will probably be referring to it elsewhere soon.
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06 Dec 2024, 4:18 pm
I've posted a detailed commentary on the alleged Albert Pike letter here, in the thread Grand conspiracy theories/claims/ideology.
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07 Dec 2024, 3:24 pm
Mona Pereth wrote:
To ShwaggyD:
Do you not understand the difference between (1) discussing conceivable alleged causes of a given situation X and (2) discussing the evidence that situation X even exists (or does not exist) in the first place? Sure, they are "connected," insofar as they both pertain to situation X, but they are not the same thing. IMO they belong in separate threads, so that one discussion does not drown out the other.
Perhaps you just don't understand why some of us value thread topicality, or why concerns about thread topicality are traditionally commonplace on message boards such as Wrong Planet?
I do owe you an apology for one thing. I should not have voiced any arguments at all against your grand conspiracy claim (beyond just briefly saying that I don't agree with it) in the very same thread (Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?) where I also declared your conspiracy claim to be off-topic in the thread. I now see why this came across as "hypocritical" and disrespectful. It would probably have been better if I had gone ahead and created a new thread myself, immediately, on the topic of grand conspiracy claims, and voiced my specific disagreements there, and then directed you to the new thread from the original thread.
Do you not understand the difference between (1) discussing conceivable alleged causes of a given situation X and (2) discussing the evidence that situation X even exists (or does not exist) in the first place? Sure, they are "connected," insofar as they both pertain to situation X, but they are not the same thing. IMO they belong in separate threads, so that one discussion does not drown out the other.
Perhaps you just don't understand why some of us value thread topicality, or why concerns about thread topicality are traditionally commonplace on message boards such as Wrong Planet?
I do owe you an apology for one thing. I should not have voiced any arguments at all against your grand conspiracy claim (beyond just briefly saying that I don't agree with it) in the very same thread (Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?) where I also declared your conspiracy claim to be off-topic in the thread. I now see why this came across as "hypocritical" and disrespectful. It would probably have been better if I had gone ahead and created a new thread myself, immediately, on the topic of grand conspiracy claims, and voiced my specific disagreements there, and then directed you to the new thread from the original thread.
Thank you.
I wasn't trying to derail anything nor was I trying to be disrespectful to anyone, so was very taken aback and got upset when what I shared was dismissed and pushed off without regard. Do I understand why? Yes, even if I don't fully agree. To you I was off the original topic, to me I wasn't. That doesn't mean either of us was right or wrong, only that we perceive things differently and that is okay. While I can understand wanting to divide the subject into all its parts, my mind just doesn't work like that. My mind is always looking at things globally, looking at all variables together and learning how and why they interact with each other to create whatever it is. Trying to keep them all separate in my head causes to much confusion for me, all together they form a pattern that I can comprehend and study.
While you and others may not believe in the validity of this or other 'Grand Conspiracies', there are many that have done enough research to believe many are true. Many don't believe there are secret societies or groups that had and continue to have an unseen power at guiding and manipulating the global societies toward a specific goal of a one world government, but that doesn't mean they aren't real. There have always been secrets, secretive groups, and evil men who desire power and control over the rest of humanity.
08 Dec 2024, 1:29 am
ShwaggyD wrote:
Thank you.
I wasn't trying to derail anything nor was I trying to be disrespectful to anyone, so was very taken aback and got upset when what I shared was dismissed and pushed off without regard. Do I understand why? Yes, even if I don't fully agree. To you I was off the original topic, to me I wasn't. That doesn't mean either of us was right or wrong, only that we perceive things differently and that is okay. While I can understand wanting to divide the subject into all its parts, my mind just doesn't work like that. My mind is always looking at things globally, looking at all variables together and learning how and why they interact with each other to create whatever it is. Trying to keep them all separate in my head causes to much confusion for me, all together they form a pattern that I can comprehend and study.
I wasn't trying to derail anything nor was I trying to be disrespectful to anyone, so was very taken aback and got upset when what I shared was dismissed and pushed off without regard. Do I understand why? Yes, even if I don't fully agree. To you I was off the original topic, to me I wasn't. That doesn't mean either of us was right or wrong, only that we perceive things differently and that is okay. While I can understand wanting to divide the subject into all its parts, my mind just doesn't work like that. My mind is always looking at things globally, looking at all variables together and learning how and why they interact with each other to create whatever it is. Trying to keep them all separate in my head causes to much confusion for me, all together they form a pattern that I can comprehend and study.
It's probably best to have some threads that are narrowly focused in topic and other threads that are more wide-ranging.
ShwaggyD wrote:
While you and others may not believe in the validity of this or other 'Grand Conspiracies', there are many that have done enough research to believe many are true.
... And others that have done enough research to conclude that they are false.
ShwaggyD wrote:
Many don't believe there are secret societies or groups that had and continue to have an unseen power at guiding and manipulating the global societies toward a specific goal of a one world government, but that doesn't mean they aren't real. There have always been secrets, secretive groups, and evil men who desire power and control over the rest of humanity.
Yes there have always been secrets and secretive elite groups. But this doesn't mean that any of them have the extremely high degree of international control, with the ability to plan out world events, in detail, decades or even centuries in advance, that is claimed in grand conspiracy theories.
As for a "one world government," there have been plenty of people who have openly advocated such a thing, without being secretive plotters. See, for example:
- World Federalist Association (WFA)
- Wikipedia article on World Federalism
- World Federalist Movement and Institute of Global Policy
I don't consider this goal to be evil. Indeed it's the only possible way to attain a lasting world peace. But it would be an extremely difficult goal to attain, in any way that would satisfy everyone as being equitable.
The United Nations, created after World War II, was intended as a step toward this goal.
ShwaggyD wrote:
This is a speech by JFK at the height of the Cold War. It reflects both the realities and the paranoia of that era. But the "conspiracy" he spoke of was simply the Communist world plus its Western sympathizers. It was NOT some alleged over-arching grand conspiracy masterminding both the Communist world and the West toward some other, hidden goal.
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