Grand conspiracy theories/claims/ideology
06 Dec 2024, 6:21 am
By "grand conspiracy theories" or "grand conspiracy ideology," I mean the idea that some centuries-old or even millenia-old shadowy organized elite group has more-or-less complete control over world events and is able to plan them out, in detail, decades or even centuries in advance.
In real life, organized elite groups do exist, and they often do steer government policies in their preferred directions, e.g. via lobbying. But the kinds of control that are commonly alleged in grand conspiracy theories, e.g. control of the timing and outcomes of major wars, and of a wide variety of longterm demographic and cultural trends, all planned decades or even centuries in advance, all toward some unified nefarious goal, are probably not humanly possible.
Grand conspiracy theories are a subset of "conspiracy theories." Real-life conspiracies do exist, and a theory about a conspiracy is not necessarily false. Some such theories are more credible than others. But grand conspiracy theories are highly unlikely to be true.
Not only are they highly unlikely to be true, but they have a very bad history of being used to scapegoat innocent -- and often non-elite -- people.
Perhaps the most notorious example is the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which scapegoated an alleged world-ruling conspiracy of Jews. It also scapegoated the democratic movements in Czarist Russia, by alleging that those movements were part of an evil Jewish plot to weaken Russia.
Another example is the many conspiracy theories about "the Illuminati."
Back in the late 1700's, in Bavaria, there really was a secretive group of atheists and anarchists who called themselves "the Illuminati," and who had to be secretive because they didn't have freedom of speech back then. But they were soon suppressed by the Bavarian government. And, as far as I am aware, there is no historical evidence that the organization survived. Yet there were folks who alleged that the Illuminati not only survived but were the evil secret masterminds behind the French Revolution.
Fear of "the Illuminati" spread across the Atlantic, where, in the newly-formed U.S.A., under the presidency of John Adams, fear of "the Illuminati" inspired the Alien and Sedition Acts. See the following pages about this:
- Illuminating Conspiracy: Demonology is a long-established if little known political tradition in the United States by S. Jonathon O’Donnell, published in History Today Volume 70, Issue 12, December 2020.
- Chapter 9, Jefferson's New Revolution, in American History told by Contemporaries by Dan Allosso
If you read these articles, notice how the late-1700's fears of "the Illuminati" are strikingly similar to today's right wing moral panics.
Around 1960 or so, fear of "the Illuminati" was revived by the John Birch Society.
In the 1970's, fear of "Satanic cults" became a big thing among both Protestant evangelicals/fundamentalists and conservative Catholics, especially among charismatics. Much of this fear was inspired by books that were eventually, much later, exposed as hoaxes/frauds, such as The Satan Seller by Mike Warnke, 1972, and Michelle Remembers by Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder, 1980.
A full-blown "Satanic ritual abuse" scare emerged in the 1980's, resulting in lots of probably-innocent child care center workers being sent to prison, and also resulting in lots of families being torn apart by alleged "recovered memories." For more about this, see the following threads:
- "Satanic ritual abuse" grand conspiracy claims
- QAnon, Blood Libel, and the Satanic Panic
The "Satanic ritual abuse" scare died down in 1995 or so, but fringe "conspiracy theorists" have been trying to revive it ever since. Alas, it has gradually become more and more popular again. The most popular recent variant is QAnon.
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06 Dec 2024, 6:35 am
Here, in the thread Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?:
ShwaggyD wrote:
What if all these problems were planned long ago? I read something decades ago that, at the time, seemed far fetched but in todays light seems very possible.
Albert Pike Letter to Mazzini-The Illuminati Plan for 3 World Wars, August 15, 1871
Note that this was supposedly written decades before WW1 yet accurately describes what actually ended up happening. That makes the last part even more pertinent to this discussion.
While many believe the letter was a fake, todays world seems strikingly similar to what was written around 150 years ago.
Albert Pike Letter to Mazzini-The Illuminati Plan for 3 World Wars, August 15, 1871
Quote:
The following is a letter, that speculation claimed that Albert Pike wrote to Giuseppe Mazzini in 1871 regarding a conspiracy involving three world wars, that were planned in an attempt to take over the world. The Pike letter to Giuseppe Mazzini was on display in the British Museum Library in London until 1977. This letter has been claimed by many internet sites to reside in the British
Library in London, which denies the letter exists.
• Giuseppe Mazzini was an Italian revolutionary leader of the mid 1800s as well as the Director of the Illuminati
• Albert Pike (historical Masonic figure) was a 33rd degree Freemason, Occultist, Grand
Master and creator of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Masonic Scottish Rite Order
Following are apparently extracts from the letter, showing how Three World Wars have been planned for many generations.
"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used
in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."
"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine.
During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."
Library in London, which denies the letter exists.
• Giuseppe Mazzini was an Italian revolutionary leader of the mid 1800s as well as the Director of the Illuminati
• Albert Pike (historical Masonic figure) was a 33rd degree Freemason, Occultist, Grand
Master and creator of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Masonic Scottish Rite Order
Following are apparently extracts from the letter, showing how Three World Wars have been planned for many generations.
"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used
in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."
"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine.
During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."
Note that this was supposedly written decades before WW1 yet accurately describes what actually ended up happening. That makes the last part even more pertinent to this discussion.
Quote:
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism
(the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other.
Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion… We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror
will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.
Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view.
This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
(the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other.
Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion… We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror
will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.
Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view.
This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
While many believe the letter was a fake, todays world seems strikingly similar to what was written around 150 years ago.
I replied:
Mona Pereth wrote:
Sounds to me like this alleged letter is most likely a hoax. Here is a relevant Reddit thread in r/AskHistorians.
"Supposedly" written before WW1. More likely, written more recently.
Grand conspiracy theories of history are not only unlikely, but also harmful. Please see the following threads here on WP:
- QAnon, Blood Libel, and the Satanic Panic
- Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof
Israel's behavior in Gaza this past year has been absolutely horrible. We need to continue building, here in the U.S.A., a mass movement against our government's unconditional support for Israel. To that end, the facts alone are horrible enough. No need to clutter the issue with grand conspiracy claims.
Quote:
Note that this was supposedly written decades before WW1 yet accurately describes what actually ended up happening.
"Supposedly" written before WW1. More likely, written more recently.
Grand conspiracy theories of history are not only unlikely, but also harmful. Please see the following threads here on WP:
- QAnon, Blood Libel, and the Satanic Panic
- Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof
Israel's behavior in Gaza this past year has been absolutely horrible. We need to continue building, here in the U.S.A., a mass movement against our government's unconditional support for Israel. To that end, the facts alone are horrible enough. No need to clutter the issue with grand conspiracy claims.
ShwaggyD then wrote:
ShwaggyD wrote:
I made no claims, in fact I mentioned my initial doubts and ended my post acknowledging the very real possibility that the letter was faked. I merely asked a legitimate question; what if it isn't. How much do you truly know about the history of Albert Pike and his role in freemasonry or Giuseppe Mazzini and his role as director of the Illuminati? Most people know little to nothing about these men and their roles in shaping the world during their lives.
I first read this over 20 years ago, and back then I recognized that there was a very real possibility that it was made up. Someone could have written it after WW2. That being said, knowing what I do about Pike and Mazzini, I also recognize that there is an equal chance that it is very real. Things are happening in todays world that appear to be following the blueprint laid out in the letter in regards to WW3. Trust me, I hope it is a fake but my own personal research has me thinking it very well might be a real plan after all.
I first read this over 20 years ago, and back then I recognized that there was a very real possibility that it was made up. Someone could have written it after WW2. That being said, knowing what I do about Pike and Mazzini, I also recognize that there is an equal chance that it is very real. Things are happening in todays world that appear to be following the blueprint laid out in the letter in regards to WW3. Trust me, I hope it is a fake but my own personal research has me thinking it very well might be a real plan after all.
If this discussion is to continue, I want to continue it here, in a thread separate from Evidence of Israel's genocidal intentions toward Gaza?, to avoid derailing that thread.
I will post some further comments later.
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06 Dec 2024, 7:24 am
Mona Pereth wrote:
By "grand conspiracy theories" or "grand conspiracy ideology," I mean the idea that some centuries-old or even millenia-old shadowy organized elite group has more-or-less complete control over world events and is able to plan them out, in detail, decades or even centuries in advance.
In real life, organized elite groups do exist, and they often do steer government policies in their preferred directions, e.g. via lobbying. But the kinds of control that are commonly alleged in grand conspiracy theories, e.g. control of the timing and outcomes of major wars, and of a wide variety of longterm demographic and cultural trends, all planned decades or even centuries in advance, all toward some unified nefarious goal, are probably not humanly possible.
Grand conspiracy theories are a subset of "conspiracy theories." Real-life conspiracies do exist, and a theory about a conspiracy is not necessarily false. Some such theories are more credible than others. But grand conspiracy theories are highly unlikely to be true.
Not only are they highly unlikely to be true, but they have a very bad history of being used to scapegoat innocent -- and often non-elite -- people.
Perhaps the most notorious example is the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which scapegoated an alleged world-ruling conspiracy of Jews. It also scapegoated the democratic movements in Czarist Russia, by alleging that those movements were part of an evil Jewish plot to weaken Russia.
Another example is the many conspiracy theories about "the Illuminati."
Back in the late 1700's, in Bavaria, there really was a secretive group of atheists and anarchists who called themselves "the Illuminati," and who had to be secretive because they didn't have freedom of speech back then. But they were soon suppressed by the Bavarian government. And, as far as I am aware, there is no historical evidence that the organization survived. Yet there were folks who alleged that the Illuminati not only survived but were the evil secret masterminds behind the French Revolution.
Fear of "the Illuminati" spread across the Atlantic, where, in the newly-formed U.S.A., under the presidency of John Adams, fear of "the Illuminati" inspired the Alien and Sedition Acts. See the following pages about this:
- Illuminating Conspiracy: Demonology is a long-established if little known political tradition in the United States by S. Jonathon O’Donnell, published in History Today Volume 70, Issue 12, December 2020.
- Chapter 9, Jefferson's New Revolution, in American History told by Contemporaries by Dan Allosso
If you read these articles, notice how the late-1700's fears of "the Illuminati" are strikingly similar to today's right wing moral panics.
Around 1960 or so, fear of "the Illuminati" was revived by the John Birch Society.
In the 1970's, fear of "Satanic cults" became a big thing among both Protestant evangelicals/fundamentalists and conservative Catholics, especially among charismatics. Much of this fear was inspired by books that were eventually, much later, exposed as hoaxes/frauds, such as The Satan Seller by Mike Warnke, 1972, and Michelle Remembers by Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder, 1980.
A full-blown "Satanic ritual abuse" scare emerged in the 1980's, resulting in lots of probably-innocent child care center workers being sent to prison, and also resulting in lots of families being torn apart by alleged "recovered memories." For more about this, see the following threads:
- "Satanic ritual abuse" grand conspiracy claims
- QAnon, Blood Libel, and the Satanic Panic
The "Satanic ritual abuse" scare died down in 1995 or so, but fringe "conspiracy theorists" have been trying to revive it ever since. Alas, it has gradually become more and more popular again. The most popular recent variant is QAnon.
In real life, organized elite groups do exist, and they often do steer government policies in their preferred directions, e.g. via lobbying. But the kinds of control that are commonly alleged in grand conspiracy theories, e.g. control of the timing and outcomes of major wars, and of a wide variety of longterm demographic and cultural trends, all planned decades or even centuries in advance, all toward some unified nefarious goal, are probably not humanly possible.
Grand conspiracy theories are a subset of "conspiracy theories." Real-life conspiracies do exist, and a theory about a conspiracy is not necessarily false. Some such theories are more credible than others. But grand conspiracy theories are highly unlikely to be true.
Not only are they highly unlikely to be true, but they have a very bad history of being used to scapegoat innocent -- and often non-elite -- people.
Perhaps the most notorious example is the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which scapegoated an alleged world-ruling conspiracy of Jews. It also scapegoated the democratic movements in Czarist Russia, by alleging that those movements were part of an evil Jewish plot to weaken Russia.
Another example is the many conspiracy theories about "the Illuminati."
Back in the late 1700's, in Bavaria, there really was a secretive group of atheists and anarchists who called themselves "the Illuminati," and who had to be secretive because they didn't have freedom of speech back then. But they were soon suppressed by the Bavarian government. And, as far as I am aware, there is no historical evidence that the organization survived. Yet there were folks who alleged that the Illuminati not only survived but were the evil secret masterminds behind the French Revolution.
Fear of "the Illuminati" spread across the Atlantic, where, in the newly-formed U.S.A., under the presidency of John Adams, fear of "the Illuminati" inspired the Alien and Sedition Acts. See the following pages about this:
- Illuminating Conspiracy: Demonology is a long-established if little known political tradition in the United States by S. Jonathon O’Donnell, published in History Today Volume 70, Issue 12, December 2020.
- Chapter 9, Jefferson's New Revolution, in American History told by Contemporaries by Dan Allosso
If you read these articles, notice how the late-1700's fears of "the Illuminati" are strikingly similar to today's right wing moral panics.
Around 1960 or so, fear of "the Illuminati" was revived by the John Birch Society.
In the 1970's, fear of "Satanic cults" became a big thing among both Protestant evangelicals/fundamentalists and conservative Catholics, especially among charismatics. Much of this fear was inspired by books that were eventually, much later, exposed as hoaxes/frauds, such as The Satan Seller by Mike Warnke, 1972, and Michelle Remembers by Michelle Smith and Lawrence Pazder, 1980.
A full-blown "Satanic ritual abuse" scare emerged in the 1980's, resulting in lots of probably-innocent child care center workers being sent to prison, and also resulting in lots of families being torn apart by alleged "recovered memories." For more about this, see the following threads:
- "Satanic ritual abuse" grand conspiracy claims
- QAnon, Blood Libel, and the Satanic Panic
The "Satanic ritual abuse" scare died down in 1995 or so, but fringe "conspiracy theorists" have been trying to revive it ever since. Alas, it has gradually become more and more popular again. The most popular recent variant is QAnon.
I have a question, Mona? Would the various JFK conspiracies count as Grand Conspiracy in your eyes for the purposes of this thread because I have heard some people think people in some of the conspiracies you mentioned were involved.
06 Dec 2024, 10:33 am
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I have a question, Mona? Would the various JFK conspiracies count as Grand Conspiracy in your eyes for the purposes of this thread because I have heard some people think people in some of the conspiracies you mentioned were involved.
Insofar as a particular JFK conspiracy theory involves alleged grand conspiracy groups (e.g. "the Illuminati" or an alleged secret international elite group of either Jews or some other, even more unpopular religious minority), those particular theories are on-topic here. Other, more mundane variants of JFK conspiracy theories (e.g. involving just an ordinary organized crime gang, or a foreign government, or perhaps rogue elements within a U.S. spy agency) are not necessarily "grand conspiracy."
The defining characteristic of a "grand conspiracy" is that it is an alleged long-lived international secret elite organization that is said to control many world events on a grand scale, over a long period of time.
Conspiracy theories involving real-life fraternal organizations such as the Freemasons are often, though not always, grand conspiracy theories. Often the Freemasons themselves are alleged to be controlled by the "Illuminati," or the "Elders of Zion," etc.
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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 06 Dec 2024, 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
06 Dec 2024, 11:04 am
Mona Pereth wrote:
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
I have a question, Mona? Would the various JFK conspiracies count as Grand Conspiracy in your eyes for the purposes of this thread because I have heard some people think people in some of the conspiracies you mentioned were involved.
Insofar as a particular JFK conspiracy theory involves alleged grand conspiracy groups (e.g. "the Illuminati" or an alleged secret elite group of either Jews or some other, even more unpopular religious minority), those particular theories are on-topic here. Other, more mundane variants of JFK conspiracy theories (e.g. involving just an ordinary organized crime gang, or a foreign government, or perhaps rogue elements within a U.S. spy agency) are not necessarily "grand conspiracy."
Oh okay.There is this Grand Conspiracy regarding JFK that I know of....One theory says that the Rothschilds were behind it because JFK wanted to possibly do away with the FED or some other thing related to high finance and central banking. They think this partially because some people believe that there was some order or memo waiting on Air Force One after the shooting reversing JFK's action or plans on the dollar and the fed and banking. Also many people on the Right Wing Media convince seniors to empty out their 401ks and pensions and put all their retirement in gold based on the Jewish Banking and FED Conspiracies.
06 Dec 2024, 11:18 am
Yes, a lot of grand conspiracy theories involve "international bankers," especially the Rothschilds (who, in real life, are no longer the international financial big cheeses that they once were). "International bankers" is often (though not always) code for "Jews."
For more about grand conspiracy theories involving Jews, see various sites I linked in the thread Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof.
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06 Dec 2024, 11:29 am
Mona Pereth wrote:
Yes, a lot of grand conspiracy theories involve "international bankers," especially the Rothschilds (who, in real life, are no longer the international financial big cheeses that they once were). "International bankers" is often (though not always) code for "Jews."
For more about grand conspiracy theories involving Jews, see various sites I linked in the thread Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof.
For more about grand conspiracy theories involving Jews, see various sites I linked in the thread Traditional anti-Jewish tropes and debunkings thereof.
George Soros has more-or-less replaced the Rothschilds these days.
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06 Dec 2024, 1:13 pm
Now for my comments about the alleged letter by Albert Pike:
ShwaggyD wrote:
What if all these problems were planned long ago? I read something decades ago that, at the time, seemed far fetched but in todays light seems very possible.
Albert Pike Letter to Mazzini-The Illuminati Plan for 3 World Wars, August 15, 1871
Albert Pike Letter to Mazzini-The Illuminati Plan for 3 World Wars, August 15, 1871
Quote:
The following is a letter, that speculation claimed that Albert Pike wrote to Giuseppe Mazzini in 1871 regarding a conspiracy involving three world wars, that were planned in an attempt to take over the world. The Pike letter to Giuseppe Mazzini was on display in the British Museum Library in London until 1977. This letter has been claimed by many internet sites to reside in the British Library in London, which denies the letter exists.
Who originally claimed that this alleged letter was in the British museum? Also, when was this alleged letter first publicized, and by whom?
ShwaggyD wrote:
Quote:
• Giuseppe Mazzini was an Italian revolutionary leader of the mid 1800s as well as the Director of the Illuminati
As far as I am aware, there is no historical evidence that the Illuminati still existed in the mid 1800's, much less that Giuseppe Mazzini was the director thereof.
ShwaggyD wrote:
Quote:
• Albert Pike (historical Masonic figure) was a 33rd degree Freemason, Occultist, Grand
Master and creator of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Masonic Scottish Rite Order
Following are apparently extracts from the letter, showing how Three World Wars have been planned for many generations.
"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used
in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."
Master and creator of the Southern Jurisdiction of the Masonic Scottish Rite Order
Following are apparently extracts from the letter, showing how Three World Wars have been planned for many generations.
"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used
in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."
Why on Earth would a "33rd degree Freemason" be interested in "making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism"? Freemasons are not required to be Christians, but they are required to be believers in a God.
EDIT: Nevermind. Later in the alleged letter, it is implied that "making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism" is part of an elaborate sequence of planned events that is supposed to culminate, eventually, in the popularization of an alleged "pure doctrine of Lucifer."
ShwaggyD wrote:
Quote:
"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine.
This alleged grand conspiracy sure does micromanage things, including even the nickname ("Nazi") of a political party projected to come into existence about 70 decades after this alleged letter was allegedly written.
Yeah, right.
Also, the word "Zionism" didn't exist until the late 1800's. Before then, Christian Zionists existed, but they were called "Restorationists," not "Zionists." So it is highly unlikely that the word "Zionist" would appear in a letter written in the mid-1800's.
ShwaggyD wrote:
Quote:
During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."
Note that this was supposedly written decades before WW1 yet accurately describes what actually ended up happening.
Of course, it's far more likely that this alleged letter was actually written sometime after World War II. As far as I am concerned, the references to "Nazism" pretty much prove this. And I'm inclined to suspect it was actually written even more recently than that.
ShwaggyD wrote:
That makes the last part even more pertinent to this discussion.
Which specific "predictions" do you deem to be especially impressive?
ShwaggyD wrote:
Quote:
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism
(the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other.
(the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other.
Many people have worried, for decades, about a possible eventual cataclysm involving Israel vs. the Islamic world. So the above-quoted "prediction" does not imply any special insight, given when it was most likely actually written (well after WW II).
In any case, this prediction hasn't actually come true yet. And the Islamic world, currently, is much too divided within itself to unite against Israel.
ShwaggyD wrote:
Quote:
Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion… We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil.
Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view.
This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view.
This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."
If the ultimate goal here was to popularize "the pure doctrine of Lucifer," whatever that is, I'm sure there could have been plenty of other, less convoluted ways to accomplish that goal.
This whole thing looks to me like a forgery written by someone trying to launch a moral panic.
ShwaggyD wrote:
While many believe the letter was a fake, todays world seems strikingly similar to what was written around 150 years ago.
Allegedly written around 150 years ago. Where is the evidence that it was actually written anywhere near that long ago?
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07 Dec 2024, 12:16 am
I'm puzzled by the appeal of conspiracy theories in general. They seem so clearly to be fairy tales and very often they are wildly improbable, and yet they appeal to a certain set of people. I've heard the explanation that they are appealing because they offer simple explanations for complex subjects, but I'm not sure that that's all there is to it. They are often quite mean and have scapegoats that are an integral part of the theory. Maybe that's appealing as well, to have people to blame?
07 Dec 2024, 12:23 am
^ Yeah, I think you’re onto something there. Related to that, it’s probably also appealing to some to believe that they know things that a lot of people, including highly educated people, don’t. Being raised with fringe religious beliefs which had some conspiracy theory elements to it, it wasn’t uncommon for believers to feel proud that they knew stuff that scientists didn’t. It made them feel special.
07 Dec 2024, 12:30 am
TwilightPrincess wrote:
^ Yeah, I think you’re onto something there. Related to that, it’s probably also appealing to some to believe that they know things that a lot of people, including highly educated people, don’t. Being raised with fringe religious beliefs which had some conspiracy theory elements to it, it wasn’t uncommon for believers to feel proud that they knew stuff that scientists didn’t. It made them feel special.
Yes, you make a good point and I think you're right. People who adhere to conspiracy theories often scoff at those who try to explain or point out that they are mistaken. They see the person correcting them as the one who is hopelessly deluded and who believes fictions. And that makes them feel smarter and in the know.
07 Dec 2024, 4:11 pm
Texasmoneyman300 wrote:
The Heaven's Gate UFO Cult believed in Grand Conspiracy because they believed the world was ruined and dominated and controlled by Luciferians. Although I must admit I dont know what a Luciferian is but I know they have been linked to conspiracies.
What is Luciferianism?
Quote:
Some scholars refer to Luciferianism as a subset of Satanism although it has very particular beliefs about Satan that are much different from those subscribed to by modern Satanists; however, there are important similarities.
For example, much like Satanism, Luciferianism is very eclectic and with no agreed-upon dogma among its adherents which makes it difficult to categorize. Also similar to Satanism, components of Luciferianism can be found in Masonic teachings, Wicca, and New Age philosophies, and its followers are heavily involved in ceremonial magic and the occult. Satanists and Luciferians also segregate themselves into two groups - those who worship Lucifer as a deity, and those who see him as a symbol worth emulating.
Here’s how the two differ. Those Luciferians who worship Lucifer as a deity focus on what they consider to be his “positive” qualities before he fell from grace. They consider him to be their “morning star” (the translation of the name Lucifer) who was created as the most beautiful, the most enlightened, the most powerful of all the angels. However, instead of accepting the rest of the story about his fall from grace and subsequent turning into an evil entity, Luciferians simply ignore this as something invented by religions to control the masses.
As this article explains, this type of Luciferianism worships Satan as the god of this world and venerates him as a being of knowledge and light. “The focus is on the ‘good’ that was in Lucifer prior to his rebellion and not the evil and darkness that is associated with the name ‘Satan.’ Though Lucifer and Satan are one and the same, Luciferianism portrays him as a god of light, a god of knowledge, and a god of magic. Luciferians seek to become gods themselves, a position attained by living a life of goodness, seeking after knowledge, practicing magic, and opening one’s mind to the cosmic mind of Lucifer. In many ways, Luciferianism resembles Gnosticism.”
The other type of Luciferianism is similar to a form of modern Satanism which does not believe in the existence of Satan and only sees him as a pre-Christian life-principal worth emulating. Anton LaVey’s Church of Satan and The Satanic Temple are examples of this type of Satanism.
For Luciferians, enlightenment is the ultimate goal. “The basic Luciferian principles highlight truth and freedom of will, worshipping the inner self and one's ultimate potential, and to encourage and celebrate the same within all," this article explains.
"Traditional dogma is shunned as a basis for morality on the grounds that humans should not need deities or fear of eternal punishment to distinguish right from wrong and to do good. All ideas should be tested before being accepted, and even then one should remain skeptical because knowledge and understanding are fluid. Regardless of whether Lucifer is conceived of as a deity or as a mere archetype, he is a representation of ultimate knowledge and exploration as well as humanity's savior and a champion for continuing personal growth.”
The article goes on to explain that the history of Luciferianism dates back to the 13th century and a woman named Lucardis who privately lamented the fall of Satan and wanted to see his exalted status in heaven restored. She established a religious sect that was eventually exposed during the Inquisition. In 1234, Pope Gregory IX issued the bull Vox in Rama calling for an end to Luciferianism.
Although the historical record is sketchy on its existence throughout the centuries, it reappeared in 1952 with an English astrologer and witch named Madeline Montalban. Together with a man named Nicholas Heron, an engraver, photographer, and former journalist, they developed a magical system based upon Luciferianism which venerates Lucifer as a deity and benevolent angelic deity. They went on to found the Order of the Morning Star and developed a correspondence course to teach their beliefs to others.
That these beliefs found a willing audience is evidenced by the growth of Luciferianistic beliefs about Satan which showed up in places such as in the personal acknowledgement section of the book, Rules for Radicals, written by the notorious community organizer, Saul Alinsky.
“Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom – Lucifer.”
Anton LaVey’s book, The Satanic Bible, also refers to Lucifer in the glowing terms of Luciferianism where he is described as one of the four crown prices of hell who is the “bringer of light, the morning star, intellectualism, and enlightenment.”
Existing Luciferian organizations include the Greater Church of Lucifer founded in 2014 in Houston, Texas by Jacob Mckelvy with co-presidents Michael W. Ford and Jeremy Crow who founded the Luciferian Research Society.
Ford is famous for writing the “11 Luciferian Points of Power” which are the core philosophies of Luciferianism and how followers see Lucifer as the inspiration for self-transformation. These include:
The Adversary represents rebellion with purpose: Wisdom, Strength and Power.
The Adversary symbolizes the spark of consciousness which questions everything, manifesting the individualistic path with accountability only to the self.
Lucifer represents the courage and fortitude to acquire healthy self-love, leading to the responsibility of honoring your temple of mind, body and spirit.
To become your own god you must have the wisdom and strength to govern and guide your life as if your mind is to survive beyond the mortal body.
It's hard to believe that people are actually willing to consort with evil so blatantly, but it's true. Years ago, Carlo Climati, who was serving as press director of the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University in Rome, told the Catholic News Agency that a society dominated by moral relativism is one reason behind this phenomenon because it creates “a society that is turned on its head, in which good becomes evil and evil becomes good,” he said.
Youth are particularly vulnerable to these teachings because they are often “the victims of terrible loneliness, the lack of communication and difficult family situations.” They find the occult to be “an easy and quick fix for their problems” and they mistake it for a game.
“In recent years young people have sort of been brainwashed into not being afraid of the occult world,” he added.
Unfortunately, for too many of these souls, they don't realize the truth until it's too late.
Let us pray for God's mercy on those who are being led down these dark paths, that He may shine His light upon their souls and lead them back to the safety of His embrace.
© All Rights Reserved, Living His Life Abundantly®/Women of Grace® http://www.womenofgrace.com
For example, much like Satanism, Luciferianism is very eclectic and with no agreed-upon dogma among its adherents which makes it difficult to categorize. Also similar to Satanism, components of Luciferianism can be found in Masonic teachings, Wicca, and New Age philosophies, and its followers are heavily involved in ceremonial magic and the occult. Satanists and Luciferians also segregate themselves into two groups - those who worship Lucifer as a deity, and those who see him as a symbol worth emulating.
Here’s how the two differ. Those Luciferians who worship Lucifer as a deity focus on what they consider to be his “positive” qualities before he fell from grace. They consider him to be their “morning star” (the translation of the name Lucifer) who was created as the most beautiful, the most enlightened, the most powerful of all the angels. However, instead of accepting the rest of the story about his fall from grace and subsequent turning into an evil entity, Luciferians simply ignore this as something invented by religions to control the masses.
As this article explains, this type of Luciferianism worships Satan as the god of this world and venerates him as a being of knowledge and light. “The focus is on the ‘good’ that was in Lucifer prior to his rebellion and not the evil and darkness that is associated with the name ‘Satan.’ Though Lucifer and Satan are one and the same, Luciferianism portrays him as a god of light, a god of knowledge, and a god of magic. Luciferians seek to become gods themselves, a position attained by living a life of goodness, seeking after knowledge, practicing magic, and opening one’s mind to the cosmic mind of Lucifer. In many ways, Luciferianism resembles Gnosticism.”
The other type of Luciferianism is similar to a form of modern Satanism which does not believe in the existence of Satan and only sees him as a pre-Christian life-principal worth emulating. Anton LaVey’s Church of Satan and The Satanic Temple are examples of this type of Satanism.
For Luciferians, enlightenment is the ultimate goal. “The basic Luciferian principles highlight truth and freedom of will, worshipping the inner self and one's ultimate potential, and to encourage and celebrate the same within all," this article explains.
"Traditional dogma is shunned as a basis for morality on the grounds that humans should not need deities or fear of eternal punishment to distinguish right from wrong and to do good. All ideas should be tested before being accepted, and even then one should remain skeptical because knowledge and understanding are fluid. Regardless of whether Lucifer is conceived of as a deity or as a mere archetype, he is a representation of ultimate knowledge and exploration as well as humanity's savior and a champion for continuing personal growth.”
The article goes on to explain that the history of Luciferianism dates back to the 13th century and a woman named Lucardis who privately lamented the fall of Satan and wanted to see his exalted status in heaven restored. She established a religious sect that was eventually exposed during the Inquisition. In 1234, Pope Gregory IX issued the bull Vox in Rama calling for an end to Luciferianism.
Although the historical record is sketchy on its existence throughout the centuries, it reappeared in 1952 with an English astrologer and witch named Madeline Montalban. Together with a man named Nicholas Heron, an engraver, photographer, and former journalist, they developed a magical system based upon Luciferianism which venerates Lucifer as a deity and benevolent angelic deity. They went on to found the Order of the Morning Star and developed a correspondence course to teach their beliefs to others.
That these beliefs found a willing audience is evidenced by the growth of Luciferianistic beliefs about Satan which showed up in places such as in the personal acknowledgement section of the book, Rules for Radicals, written by the notorious community organizer, Saul Alinsky.
“Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where mythology leaves off and history begins or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom – Lucifer.”
Anton LaVey’s book, The Satanic Bible, also refers to Lucifer in the glowing terms of Luciferianism where he is described as one of the four crown prices of hell who is the “bringer of light, the morning star, intellectualism, and enlightenment.”
Existing Luciferian organizations include the Greater Church of Lucifer founded in 2014 in Houston, Texas by Jacob Mckelvy with co-presidents Michael W. Ford and Jeremy Crow who founded the Luciferian Research Society.
Ford is famous for writing the “11 Luciferian Points of Power” which are the core philosophies of Luciferianism and how followers see Lucifer as the inspiration for self-transformation. These include:
The Adversary represents rebellion with purpose: Wisdom, Strength and Power.
The Adversary symbolizes the spark of consciousness which questions everything, manifesting the individualistic path with accountability only to the self.
Lucifer represents the courage and fortitude to acquire healthy self-love, leading to the responsibility of honoring your temple of mind, body and spirit.
To become your own god you must have the wisdom and strength to govern and guide your life as if your mind is to survive beyond the mortal body.
It's hard to believe that people are actually willing to consort with evil so blatantly, but it's true. Years ago, Carlo Climati, who was serving as press director of the Regina Apostolorum Pontifical University in Rome, told the Catholic News Agency that a society dominated by moral relativism is one reason behind this phenomenon because it creates “a society that is turned on its head, in which good becomes evil and evil becomes good,” he said.
Youth are particularly vulnerable to these teachings because they are often “the victims of terrible loneliness, the lack of communication and difficult family situations.” They find the occult to be “an easy and quick fix for their problems” and they mistake it for a game.
“In recent years young people have sort of been brainwashed into not being afraid of the occult world,” he added.
Unfortunately, for too many of these souls, they don't realize the truth until it's too late.
Let us pray for God's mercy on those who are being led down these dark paths, that He may shine His light upon their souls and lead them back to the safety of His embrace.
© All Rights Reserved, Living His Life Abundantly®/Women of Grace® http://www.womenofgrace.com
07 Dec 2024, 5:42 pm
bee33 wrote:
I'm puzzled by the appeal of conspiracy theories in general. They seem so clearly to be fairy tales and very often they are wildly improbable, and yet they appeal to a certain set of people. I've heard the explanation that they are appealing because they offer simple explanations for complex subjects, but I'm not sure that that's all there is to it. They are often quite mean and have scapegoats that are an integral part of the theory. Maybe that's appealing as well, to have people to blame?
I'm puzzled by people who treat anything labelled as a 'conspiracy theory' as a fairy tale, and anyone who dares to believe them as arrogant fools. Just because so many people are unwilling or unable to make the necessary connections to see and perhaps understand the truth in some of those theories doesn't automatically make them false.
There have been several 'conspiracy theories' that were mocked and ridiculed by the general public that ended up being proven to be completely true. The theory that the government was spying on every and all Americans was labelled as a wild and completely untrue 'misinformation', anyone who believed that was a crazy person. Then Edward Snowden came and proved the conspiracy theory true. We were told covid was caused by 'accident' and everyone believed it, now evidence is showing that to be false. We were told the mRNA covid vaccines were necessary, 100% safe and anyone who didn't believe that was a wacko who hated everyone; once again the conspiracy theory going against that is being proven true.
It takes time, effort, and mental determination to research these sort of things in life and hopefully find the truth. Most aren't capable of it. It's not their fault, but that doesn't excuse their pretending they know everything and attacking others who they disagree with. The reality of life is that none of us know everything about anything. Some of us are content with our ignorance, others want or need to learn about the things we are ignorant of but interested in. A seeker of truth doesn't avoid or ridicule knowledge that seems to contradict what we believe for we know that we don't know everything so what we see as truth today can be proven as false tomorrow.
07 Dec 2024, 5:48 pm
I’ve learned enough over the years not to dismiss an idea just because I see a load of other people calling it a ‘conspiracy theory’.
It’s true that there are some people who seem to see conspiracies and false flags and PSYOPs everywhere.
But at the other end of the spectrum are people I find just as blinkered, and I call these people anti-conspiracy-theorists. I’m not talking about the OP here, who seems to be prepared to discuss specifics. I’m talking about people who make sweeping statements about why ‘conspiracy theories’ in general can’t be true. The things these people come out with are usually just self-serving tautologies.
They’ll say things like:
“People who believe in conspiracy theories just can’t deal with the complexity of the world and just want simple explanations for things” [Hmm, isn’t going with simple explanations usually a good idea? Occam’s Razor and everything…]
Or
“Conspiracy theories can’t happen because they are too complicated and involve too many people and too many moving parts” [Sometimes you’ll see this statement made by the same people who make the previous statement, even though both statements kind of contradict each other.]
And when you show these people examples of things that were once considered ‘conspiracy theories’ but are now widely accepted, they’ll make some excuse as to why “that’s different”.
Last edited by slam_thunderhide on 07 Dec 2024, 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
07 Dec 2024, 5:48 pm
Regarding ShwaggyD’s claim made in another thread about an alleged letter by Albert Pike-
I regret the hurried post I made agreeing that the discussion belonged in a new thread.
I can see arguments both for and against it being relevant to the original discussion.
My main issue is with whether the letter is real or not, and I don’t believe that it is. When you look at Israel’s onslaught against Gaza, you see the results of a political ideology (Zionism) that’s been around since the 19th century and that tries to justify itself using bloodthirsty Biblical tales from 3,000 years ago. I just don’t think there is any mystery there that needs to be explained by the existence of a ‘higher power’ like the Illumnati.
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