Discussing the toxicity of wokeness

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My personal experience challenges the broad claim that all men, simply by virtue of being male, are inherently privileged in life. While I fully acknowledge that women and other marginalized groups face unique and significant challenges, I reject the idea that all men live with ease or advantage. This oversimplification not only disregards individual circumstances but also diminishes the complexity of systemic issues.

I take issue with the tendency to paint men with a broad brush, as though their lives are easier in the vast majority of cases. Privilege is not a one-size-fits-all concept, and reducing people’s experiences to their demographic categories overlooks the intersectional nature of struggles that individuals face. Gender, race, socioeconomic status, disability, and personal circumstances all interact in ways that make sweeping generalizations unhelpful and counterproductive.

We live in a society that actively implements policies like Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives and affirmative action to address historic and systemic inequalities. While well-intentioned, some of these policies can overreach, leading to practices that inadvertently perpetuate bias or exclusion in the name of fairness. Fighting bias with bias risks creating new inequities and resentment, which only complicates the pursuit of justice.

My frustration lies in the perception that any critique of these policies or ideologies is automatically dismissed as ignorance or bigotry. This dismissal silences people who, despite not fitting into traditional categories of oppression, still face significant struggles. It’s not that I oppose acknowledging privilege or systemic inequality—I oppose the idea that someone’s voice or experience can be invalidated solely because of their demographic identity.

For example, as a “cis white male,” I have often felt my opinions and struggles dismissed or diminished simply because I don’t belong to a traditionally oppressed group. While it’s good to have compassion for the oppressed, that doesn’t mean people outside these groups lack valid perspectives or don’t face their own challenges. It’s harmful to suggest that their suffering is irrelevant or insignificant by comparison.

I have also struggled with challenges that extend beyond identity politics. I suspect I have autism, though my psychologist has not given a formal diagnosis. Instead, she frequently refers to me as having “autistic characteristics.” This has affected my ability to connect with others and contributed to a lifelong sense of loneliness and alienation.

Throughout my life, I have battled depression and deep feelings of isolation. I’ve never had a girlfriend, and as someone in their late 20s, this affects me profoundly. While some might dismiss this as trivial, for me, it is a significant source of pain. Intimacy and connection are fundamental human needs, and their absence creates a longing that no amount of philosophical detachment can alleviate.

Economic hardship has also been a major factor in my life. I come from a lower-middle-income family that faced severe financial challenges when I was 17. These difficulties limited my opportunities for work, education, and even basic milestones like owning a car. I am now working full-time while pursuing my studies. This dual burden is exhausting, especially when many of my peers are able to focus on college full-time without the added stress of employment.

I often feel invisible in the world. This may sound unscientific, but it’s the best way I can describe it. There’s a sense of being overlooked or dismissed, as if my existence doesn’t matter. It reminds me of the Joker’s line, “If I died on the street, you would walk all over me.”

All of these personal experiences, combined with a sense of alienation from progressive spaces, have left me with anger issues. Feeling dismissed by both societal structures and the very communities that claim to champion fairness and inclusion has compounded this frustration.

I recently joined this group because I'm wondering if someone might resonate to my experience. And I hope people don't instantly go try to "debunk" and "refute" the things I'm saying, as I have experienced in other forums.

Another bait-and-switch post?  OP starts out complaining about "wokeness" only to segue into his own personal problems.

Thank you for 100% dismissing every single thing I wrote. It perfectly examplifies the issue.

And the fact you portray it as "complaining" shows how little discourse is allowed on this topic.

The main point of my post isn’t about my personal problems—it’s about the broader issue of how progressive movements love to oversimplify privilege and oppression, dismissing people who don’t fit neatly into those frameworks. My personal experiences are just one example of this dynamic.

But I see it's pointless to attempt to address this topic with any amount of nuance. The resistance is always a kneejerk reaction to dismiss any dissent as mere ignorance, bigotry, and [insert hateful right-wing ideology here].

Wokies like you make it impossible for there to be healthy discussions in this already polarized culture.

Welcome to Wrong Planet

It is true that if you are a member of certain groups(autistics being one) you have a better chance of being treated unfairly than if you are a member of other groups. But to assume you are privileged or racist because you are a member of certain groups is bigotry full stop. Bigotry is automatically assuming negative things about other people based on the group they belong to. Racism is a negative, and the privileged are looked down upon. In short "wokeness" tries to solve the real problem of bigotry with more bigotry. This is not only unfair to members of groups deemed automatically privileged or racist it also harms the groups deemed oppressed. The term "woke" originated in the American black community as advice to be aware of things that are racist but aren't obvious. That is good in and of itself. It became a problem when "wokes" started assuming racism and privilege in seemingly every interaction. Awareness is good, but paranoia is not.

I have been interacting with Fnord on this site for over 11 years and he is no woke. He has opinions that conflate with "wokeness" and other opinions that are an anathema to them.

They have DEI in Portugal?

It’s a bit challenging to address your post because I’m not sure if all people use the term “wokeness” exactly like you do. People have claimed that I am woke since I discuss intersectionality and oppression. I have not seen many claim that simply being male means that someone will have an easy life. Even if one does not belong to any marginalized group, life can be challenging for any number of reasons. Macro trends don’t always mean much on an individual level.

If you belong to a marginalized group and have been marginalized in some way, it doesn’t mean that people will automatically think your suffering is significant or relevant, either. It’s not uncommon for people’s struggles to be dismissed, denied, or even worse possibilities. Sometimes people suggest that you are privileged because you belong to a marginalized demographic when the reality doesn’t often or doesn’t always come with the advantages that people think it does. Maybe the problem is more about some struggling to see the challenges other people face.

No matter the demographic they belong to, I think a lot of people struggle with feelings of invisibility and alienation.

@ASPartOfMe

Gosh thank you. Finally, you're the first person I've interacted with on this topic who understands what I'm saying and doesn't misconstrue me.

Yes, Portugal has DEI/Affirmative Action in the job market.

I don't want to get into that niche topic because I know it's contentious. But I find it very reductive that people insist they want a perfect 50/50 male to female ratio in all industries.

But conveniently, whenever there's an assymetry where women dominate, like the HR field, or Psych, or Education, for those fields DEI and Affirmative action doesn't exist.

And I understand that discrimination and sexism are invisible. I might benefit from a lot of things as a male because I'm not explicitly told/aware of certain things I get in life that females don't get. However, I have experienced instances where people straight to my face say "No we won't hire you because we're looking for a female" and I have to say, for someone who was struggling to survive in the job market for a long time, that REALLY hurt.

I can give the example of my industry. I work in IT. When I went to college, I had very few female classmates. And the woke perspective is that "because patriarchy". But I can say this, from anecdotal evidence, that simply women in general don't like this industry. I'm not denying the existence of some sexism or discrimination somewhere in the industry, but what I am saying is that expecting a perfect 50/50 is wrong. IT is a very nerdy topic that most women just aren't interested in.

And yet, if I go job hunt, for each job I apply for, I must compete with 100+ applicants (both male and female).
Whereas women have lots of female exclusive job opportunities in this field. Does it seem fair that I have to compete with 100+ applicants on average per job post, whereas a female might only have to compete with say 10 applicants?

At some point this goes too far.

I had a debate with someone earlier who demanded me a scientific study "proving" this. And to quantify scientifically what "goes too far" even means. And that angers me. Because I'm actively being harmed by these practices and yet people put the burden of proof on me.

I won't get into further detail on this example. This is one specific example that anyone who experienced what I experienced, in my country, would agree. But to an outsider this comes across as laughable. The person I debated with earlier said it was outrageous "You think white males are oppressed in the IT industry??? You can't be serious." he said. And I just can't engage with that kind of dialogue. It's an exaggeration of my point.

"Woke" (as I understand it) in it's original form is the awareness of and active attention to important societal facts and issues -- particularly issues of racial, sexual, and social injustice. As such, there is no inherent toxicity to "wokeness", only to the people who knowingly misuse the term.

However, the term "woke" has devolved to the point where it is most often used in contexts that suggest someone's expressed beliefs about such matters are not backed with genuine concern or action (e.g., "Armchair Activists" who pay only lip service to social issues).  The term "woke" has also become a label of hatred in that some people who do not appreciate "wokeness" will accuse someone they do not like of being "woke", and in much the same way that others will accuse people they do not like of being "bastards" and "SOBs".

Differences of opinion and lack of understanding do not make a person "woke" or "unwoke", by the way.

I see "woke" in an entirely different light. I think enlightened awareness better explains this. I feel what is called wokeness is really a perspective that all people are inter-connected; birth is so random; we don't control what our sex is, what socioeconomic status we are born into, what our race is etc. etc. I was always taught I am better than nobody and nobody is better than me. This is what I feel "woke" really means.

Within the context of discourse, this viewpoint is an "Iron Man Fallacy." It assumes that any ideology associated with the progressive movement—such as "wokeness"—is inherently positive, fair, and inclusive, while dismissing legitimate criticisms.

In reality, "wokeness" is not a monolithic concept. While some aspects promote awareness and empathy, I there are excesses and toxic elements that have sparked significant debate. Many aspects of wokeness can be exclusionary, stifle open discussion, or even promote forms of ideological conformity. Recognizing these critiques doesn't invalidate the positive aspects, but it does suggest a need for a more nuanced understanding of the movement.

Examples:

• Defund the Police Movement: Calls to abolish or drastically reduce law enforcement without clear, practical alternatives.
• Excessive Focus on Microaggressions: Overemphasis on minor, often unintended slights, leading to a culture of hyper-sensitivity.
• Canceling Historical Figures and Cultural Symbols: Demands to remove statues, books, or historical references viewed as offensive.
• Weaponizing Intersectionality: Using complex identities as tools for division rather than understanding or unity.
• Over-politicization of Everyday Life: Politicizing everything from language to personal preferences, turning trivial matters into culture wars.
• Restricting Free Speech: Attempts to shut down conversations or viewpoints considered controversial or unpopular.
• Purity Culture in Activism: Expecting individuals to align perfectly with ideological purity, leading to self-righteousness and exclusion of dissent.

quote from above con: examples,
Defund the Police Movement: Calls to abolish or drastically reduce law enforcement without clear, practical alternatives.
Excessive Focus on Microaggressions: Overemphasis on minor, often unintended slights, leading to a culture of hyper-sensitivity.
Canceling Historical Figures and Cultural Symbols: Demands to remove statues, books, or historical references viewed as offensive.
Weaponizing Intersectionality: Using complex identities as tools for division rather than understanding or unity.
Over-politicization of Everyday Life: Politicizing everything from language to personal preferences, turning trivial matters into culture wars.
Restricting Free Speech: Attempts to shut down conversations or viewpoints considered controversial or unpopular.
Purity Culture in Activism: Expecting individuals to align perfectly with ideological purity, leading to self-righteousness and exclusion of dissent.

If you read this carefully and understand it to be a fact. Why would such a woke thing exist .
This is a deep dive, maybe not ? If your government had over the years promoted racial and other tensions ,with
potentially otherwise nefarious intent . And knew the next year, were aware your government was going to put a felonious SOB into a high office . If the population had any kind of cohesion,they would en masse not vote for the SOB
So you start a program into the mix, So you kill george floyd,and stir the fire around the racial issue .Then you add a few more events and subtly intiate a woke program . And let protests run rampant , furthering devisiveness in the population.And blackfolk have strong feeling about not being heard..! So then in order to make it appear as there is nothing underhanded going on with the movement, To the people, You throw in a defund the police movement as cover.
So everyone feels on board, and it makes the situation more intense...even More Devisive. White people middle class might be in fear of no police. Black people leaders are rounded up that helped start the march in Portland,by men in black, later to be found to be employed by the Feds .And you never hear of what became if them?
So you further divide the population. Now comes time for the Orangeman to run for office .. Meanwhile the attention is on wokeness , Not the process by which the population was divided. So due to the "giant media attn". these things got Black folk are completely disillusioned by the system. And they do not vote, ( which the SOB party knows) is automatically a vote for Trump. And those left to vote against SOB are now a minority . And in essence Common sense
is not involved in the election.. And a Felonious ,possible rapist is now in office . Not a great leap of Understanding here.
But nevertheless a big whiney conspirascy theory ..whaa...whaa...whaa.. but Presto! No Dissent.

A simple method used by the CIA to topple unfriendly smaller democracies above ^^^^^^ manipulate dissent in populace .