Capitalism, Socialism, & Jesus (split)

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Expanding on that idea - Capitalism holds at it's core beliefs, two very flawed assumptions about people and society.

1. Competition will bring out the best of people
2. People will be honest to, respect, value, and reward others for their own abilites

Of course if #1 was true, there would be no need for anti-trust laws. And if #2 was true, there would be no need for labor unions and minimum wage laws.

#1 There is no reason for ant-trust laws. Show me where a monopoly has ever been harmful in a truly free market.

#2 The minimum wage causes unemployment and inflation. We'd be better off without it.

I'm not falling into that trap.

But let me say the idea of a monopoly in a "free market" is completely backwards because how is a market that's controlled by one entity "free"?

Monopolys are bad period, they styme competiton because none can occur. Capitalism is all about competition.



How so? Except for the ocassional recession, this country has been traditonally at or near a state of "full employment", besides, most jobs pay above minimum wage anyways so it's really a non-factor to begin with.

It's purpose to me is to keep employeers from screwing over employees (and you can't deny the fact that there are people who would do if given the chance, it's simple human nature)

Okay, but when has there ever been a monopoly in a truly free market? I can't think of any monopoly that can exist without the assistance of the government. The government enables monopolies through patents, franchises, trademarks, etc. Take Microsoft for example. How could they be a monopoly if they didn't have so many patents on their software? Rival companies could just copy everything they made and we would have many operating systems today, in fact we do. Even though MS has 90% or so of the market they don't have all the market and their hold is dwindling as Linux and other alternatives rise. I don't see them as a danger at the moment... except through the patents, which I think is contradictory to a truly free market.

Another example of a dangerous monopoly that is often cited is that Oil monopoly that kept buying out it's competitors. Well, the thing about that was to buy out their competitors they had to sell their oil at a loss which their competitors couldn't match. This was good for consumers as it resulted in cheaper oil. Secondly, anyone who wanted to make alot of money could just start their own oil company with the knowledge that they'd be bought out. So people kept setting up oil companies and kept getting bought out until it reached a point where the oil monopoly gave up and competition was allowed.

So no, I don't see how monopolies are harmful or can even exist for long in a truly free market.



As you said, it is a non-factor because most jobs pay above the minimum wage anyways. Walmart does, I'm sure... This proves that the market will set wages fairly and an artificial minimum does not need to be imposed. What the minimum wage does do is throw people off work when employers can no longer afford to pay the higher wages, causing thousands to lose their jobs and hurting the economy. It also causes inflation by increasing the amount of fiat money in circulation. What do you think would happen if the minimum wage were raised to $20 an hour? Millions would lose their jobs and the prices of everything would go up. In the end things would be worse off than before you raised the minimum... Alot of people argue in favor of a minimum wage, and they mean well, but the logic behind having it simply isn't there.

But so many starting jobs pay above the minimum anyway. In a free market employers have to be competitive to retain and obtain their employees. If you don't like the wages your employer is offering you are free to find another employer that is offering something better.

One other thing I'd like to add: Even if you were right about the minimum wage and anti-trust laws being necessary (and I don't agree with you, but let's assume you are right) that doesn't excuse converting the economy into full-blown socialism. If you can point out two flaws in capitalism, so what? I can point out dozens of flaws in full-blown socialism.
You just have to go with what is the lesser evil, and capitalism is the least evil of all economic systems man has yet devised.

###CONSERVATIVE ALERT###CONSERVATIVE ALERT###READY PHASERS###

Since when has any "free market" ever been free?

Since when did capitalism give workers any reward for their work?

Since when has a monopoly been a good thing?

Since when have Democracy and Capitalism been the same thing?

Whenever monopolies happen here they artificially raise the price and neglect their duties, even the capatilist governments of the world realise this and set up pro-competition commisions. I have done security jobs beforre the minimum wage came, wages that are under any sort of decent living standard while dealing with wealth and protecting it causes what exactly? The same pro-capitilists that are so righteous about crime are causing it in the first place by expecting their fellow huumans to live like dogs.

There can't be. A truly free market dosen't have monopolys. The point I'm trying to make here is that with a free market you will eventually end with them becasue there's nothing to stop one buisness who grows to suck up all the litte guys. Sure the consumers might like it becasue of the price wars that will ensue, but when all the competition is dead, what do you have?



150 years it was common place for local goverments to grant monopolys to buisnesses. As for patents, franchises, and trademarks ETC, those don't enable monopolies. There in place to protect quote end-quote "intellectual property" from being stolen or used by others with out proper compenstation. As for computers, there's the classic tale of how in 1982 compaq created the first PC clone by reverse enginering the IBM ROM software, and recreating it so the compaq ROM behaved the exact same way as the IBM ROM, with out actually even resembleing the IBM ROM. So even though IBM had a copyright on it's ROM software, compaq was still able to create a viable product and market it




So then why even worry about it. Like I said above, keep it as safegaurd to prevent people from being taken advantage of.




Most employers who lay-off are not doing drastic wage cuts before hand. Employers typically don't cut wages anyways. My dad has worked in an industry that's very much dependent on the state of the economy. He's been laid off several times and had to go on unemployment until he was called back, but's he's never had to take a pay or hours cut. Cutting wages would be counter productive anyways because then those people would get mad for getting less and would be inclined to look for new work, or quit before their checks got so thin that there would not be enough to worry about the neccesities.



Exactly what you said. But you know what? That will never happen. But like I've said, there are people out there who are ripe for being taken advantage of, and there are people out there willing to take advantage of these people. And that's why these safegaurds are needed.



And you know what? You exactly right on that account also. I encourage you to read through my posts here and find one instance where I've directly supported socialism. You won't find any, why, becasue I'm not a socialist. I strongly believe in "free markets", but I also believe in using a checks and balance system to keep things from getting out of hand like what would potentially happen if the laze fare approach many of the neocons in washington want would be fully implemented.

Before you label me a conservative you should know that I am pro-gay rights, pro-marijuana, pro-choice, and against the Iraq war. I am a Libertarian which means I am against government telling people what to do with their bodies, so in that way I am kinda like a Liberal, but on the other hand I am also against the government taking money from people's wallets so I'm conservative when it comes to economics.

I'm just pro-liberty in every way.

Jesus was a socialist. Im not religous but i believe he was a good man and believed in spreading the wealth. What excuse is there for so many supposed Christians to go against his word like that?

You didn't quote my example of the standard oil monopoly. They were buying out their competitors by offering oil at a price well below what their competitors could afford, thus driving them out of business and then buying them up. This made oil much much cheaper for the consumer, but at the same time this practice could not be maintained indefinitely and eventually competition was able to establish itself. You can't keep offering a product below cost and buying up your competitors. Eventually you will go bust and this proves monopolies can't last indefinitely.



I must have mistook your posts for someone else's. For that I apologize... it seems like alot of people here wouldn't be happy unless all industries were nationalized.

Neo-cons do not want a free market. They are for corporate subsidies and regulations and things like that. Neo-cons are the lackeys of big business. They have no problem with doing their bidding. This means things like passing laws that stifle competition and innovation. If big business wants a war, or a law passed, you can be sure the politicians will do what they're told. A free market means you do not hinder nor help business in any way. You just leave it to it's own devices.

For this reason I think there should be a seperation of business and government, for the same reasons that we have a seperation of religion and government. We wouldn't tolerate it if government told us where and what we could worship, so why should we tolerate it when government tells us where and what we can sell or buy? But don't get me wrong... just as you can't practice human sacrifice in your religion, nor should you be able to use slave labor in your business. I believe in a Laissez Faire economy but only to the extent that no one's rights are being violated. That's where I draw the line and that's where I think government is necessary.

Of course not, but once you've gotten rid of all of your competitors, your free to charge what ever you want. And if politicians have their hands in your pocket, all the better for you.

Standard Oil is the reason why we have anti-trust laws today. At their peak, they had total control over almost all apsects of the oil business.

A lot of the business regulations and labor laws on the books today are there as a result to correct injustices of the past



No offense taken.

Eamonn, that is one of the best things I've heard you say in a long time (no offense of course!), and you are absolutely right.

JESUS WAS (AND STILL IS) A SOCIALIST. Just to say it nice and loud so all the religious right can hear.

He told us to give lots to the poor. He even said it is better to be poor than to be rich, because greedy people will never go to heaven!! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !!

I'm sure Jesus would not have liked it if Caesar nationalized his carpentry shop.

Jesus was charitible, but his idea of charity did not involve government agents robbing people at gunpoint.

Jesus' politics were about compassion, forgiveness and self giving love. Jesus' politics was about looking after those who couldnt look after themselves not allowing them to rot while feathering his own nest, he was welcoming those who couldnt participate in mainstream society. He shunned wordly power and hated the greed in which man placed a price to everything. By all accounts he was far closer to being socialist than capatilist and would be disguted by the actions of his greedy so-called followers today as he was by greedy people in his day.

I think this quote from the bible says it all:

"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (II Corinthians 9:7)

Jesus believed in voluntary charity, not in social programs where government agents rob people of their property at gunpoint. Socialism is little more than thievery, and the bible specifically says "thou shalt not steal".

That's where we disagree. I see capatalism and big business as theivery. Judas was all for profits and look what happened to him. Socialism believes in every person living in dignity as is Jesus' will. Voluntary charity is'nt working while there are children dying every three seconds in the world due to poverty and people are living in squalor. Others are filthy rich and continue to practice legalized crookery. It is bad enough seeing the greed is good culture from republicans and pro-capitalists but for them to be christians as well is just a bit rich.