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matsuiny2004
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27 Mar 2008, 3:54 pm

I never undertood why people think of atheism as being unreligious I mean it is still a belief it not like people can prove with hard science wether god exists or not, it is as if it unfalsifiable.



Last edited by matsuiny2004 on 27 Mar 2008, 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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27 Mar 2008, 4:00 pm

It's certainly not a "religion" but many people feel that it takes a bit of faith to conclude that there must absolutely not be some sort of higher/underlying power (which I can understand, but think it is preposterous to consider it religion, in the same way that say, Christian doctrine is). I tend to buy into Carl Sagan's particular brand of agnosticism (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).

Either way, prepare to hear a lot about Bertrand Russel's teapot.


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Last edited by Phagocyte on 27 Mar 2008, 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

matsuiny2004
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27 Mar 2008, 4:01 pm

would belief be a more correct term?



Phagocyte
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27 Mar 2008, 4:19 pm

matsuiny2004 wrote:
would belief be a more correct term?


From your point of view, yes, but again, it depends on whom you ask.

In the strictest definition, "god" is an all-powerful, supreme being. I find this concept rather unlikely, so in this sense, I would be an atheist. It is certainly not belief, but an absence of belief, since the notion of a superhuman creature is not consistent with logic.

But if one were to describe "god" as, say, a sort of underlying order, then it certainly seems more logical, so in this sense, I would be an agnostic.

I hope I made my stance a bit more clear.


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matsuiny2004
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27 Mar 2008, 4:21 pm

I am agnostic too. I question what god can be and what gods motives can be, but I really have my own religion. It combines buddhism, some hinduism and many other religions. To me god is the enrgy surrounding us and if there was an all powerful god he could take any form or shape.



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27 Mar 2008, 4:25 pm

That's interesting. The problem with talk on god is that everyone has their own, even people of the same religion are members of different denominations, and even then God means different things to each of them.

I really have no beliefs, though I am open to the concept of an underlying order.


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matsuiny2004
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27 Mar 2008, 4:29 pm

It is interessting that in many organziaed religions there are people that have completely different beliefs, that may not even been in theri said congretations scripture. That would be an argument for spirtuality and personal belief instead of organzied religion and fundamentalism.



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27 Mar 2008, 6:58 pm

Atheism is a belief the same way that assuming you're a real person and not a brain in a jar is a belief. You could come up with an infinite number of unfalsifiable possibilities, most of them utterly ridiculous, but not believing in them isn't really of any significance unless others start insisting upon them.



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27 Mar 2008, 7:03 pm

matsuiny2004 wrote:
I never undertood why people think of atheism as being unreligious I mean it is still a belief it not like people can prove with hard science wether god exists or not, it is as if it unfalsifiable.
Deism is as false, in the eyes of science, as it is possible for something to be. It is unsupported and unsupportable.



matsuiny2004
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27 Mar 2008, 7:06 pm

Griff wrote:
matsuiny2004 wrote:
I never undertood why people think of atheism as being unreligious I mean it is still a belief it not like people can prove with hard science wether god exists or not, it is as if it unfalsifiable.
Deism is as false, in the eyes of science, as it is possible for something to be. It is unsupported and unsupportable.


There is just as much proof for that as there is for atheism



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27 Mar 2008, 7:16 pm

matsuiny2004 wrote:
Griff wrote:
matsuiny2004 wrote:
I never undertood why people think of atheism as being unreligious I mean it is still a belief it not like people can prove with hard science wether god exists or not, it is as if it unfalsifiable.
Deism is as false, in the eyes of science, as it is possible for something to be. It is unsupported and unsupportable.


There is just as much proof for that as there is for atheism
In the sciences, we're talking about support.



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27 Mar 2008, 7:34 pm

"Atheism is a religion" is a very useful statement. It saves a lot of time and aggravation by warning you that someone is not worth arguing with.


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27 Mar 2008, 8:21 pm

The question is pretty meaningless, because the word "religion" is nebulous. Here's a bunch of definitions (from typing "define: religion" in Google):

Quote:
a system of beliefs relating to supernatural or superhuman beings or forces that transcend the everyday material world.
www.anthro.wayne.edu/ant2100/GlossaryCultAnt.htm

belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe
www.millicentrogers.org/glossary.htm

Has many definitions - most of them involve the idea of supernatural agency.
www.csa.com/discoveryguides/religion/gloss.php

an organized system of faith and worship
www.phmc.state.pa.us/bah/priestley/vocab.asp

Oxford dictionary definition (theistic): "1 the belief in a superhuman controlling power, esp. in a personal God or gods entitled to obedience and worship. 2 the expression of this in worship. 3 a particular system of faith and worship. ...
www.ecotao.com/holism/glosoz.htm

[from Latin religare to bind back, implying obligation; or from relegere to select, distinguish among various elements for the choosing of the best; ponder] In theosophy individual religion of conduct means faith in his own essential divinity as a source of wisdom and an unerring and infallible ...
www.theosociety.org/pasadena/etgloss/red-roos.htm

(Latin: religio, ligo, "to bind together") A way of seeing, thinking, and acting inspired by questions about what things mean: ie Where did we come from?, What is our destiny?, What is true?, What is false?, What is my duty or obligation?, What is the meaning of suffering? ...
www.nmhschool.org/tthornton/world_relig ... finiti.php

is many following the inspiration of one enlightened person; is following other's spiritual experience as adopted by us.
www.gurusoftware.com/GuruNet/AurobindoM ... nology.htm

An association or system organized around devotion to a principle or group of principles.
www.meanspc.com/~jeff_wilson63/myths/SocDefs.html


So by most (but not all) of those definitions, atheism is not a religion. But it is a belief:

Quote:
or believes means that the person involved actually supposed the fact in question to be true. A person's belief may be inferred from circumstances.
www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/docu ... r_11_1.htm

Agreement with a given world view. Eg Belief in the existence of God. (JA)
www.eubios.info/biodict.htm

This means that an individual is convinced of the truth of a statement or allegation.
www.attorneykennugent.com/library/b.html

An attitude of acceptance or assent toward a proposition without the full intellectual knowledge required guaranteeing its truth.
www.anthro.wayne.edu/ant2100/GlossaryCultAnt.htm



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27 Mar 2008, 8:27 pm

Dawkin's version of atheism is a religion. But when I hear "atheism," I tend to think more what people call agnosticism- atheism simply means lacking a belief in a deity, and so what is generally called agnosticism is better termed atheism. And that's certainly not a religion, because the person isn't ascribing to any set of beliefs.


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27 Mar 2008, 8:38 pm

Griff wrote:
matsuiny2004 wrote:
I never undertood why people think of atheism as being unreligious I mean it is still a belief it not like people can prove with hard science wether god exists or not, it is as if it unfalsifiable.
Deism is as false, in the eyes of science, as it is possible for something to be. It is unsupported and unsupportable.


deism as a very concept falls so far outside the scope of science that science can not make a single statement about it. that includes claims on falsification.



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27 Mar 2008, 8:39 pm

Orwell wrote:
And [agnosticism is] certainly not a religion, because the person isn't ascribing to any set of beliefs.


That's not necessarily true. Some agnostics believe that God is unknowable, or that its existance cannot be proven or disproven. I would call that a belief. Weak agnosticism in the sense of "I don't know if there is a God, or what its nature may be if it does exist" is not a belief, though.