music and strife

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Music, something else that, oddly enough, divides people..... But lets look at the 2 major forms of music, rock and rap, that have accumulated the most fan support..... Everyone seems to think they are total opposites, but I digress.... Lets use punk rock to make this example....

Similarities between punk and hip hop

1. Both began as very anti-establishment, though maybe in different perspectives
2. Both are expressions of the poor man's struggle against the system (gutter music, gutter culture, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, despite popular perception).
3. Both came up around the same time
4. Both have been totally sold out their fans in the mainstream, at about the same time.
5. Both are listened to by gang members (I'm not condoning being in a gang though). Hip hop with "gangstas" and punk with skin heads (some are racist, some are anti-racist).
6. Both have a desire to "keep it real" or at least what they believe is "real". That fighting spirit, if you will.


..... Really I don't think their that different, if you go back to their roots... The only main thing I see different really is the sound of the music. So why do they have such a hard time accepting one another? Why is there this "us vs. them" mentality?

That really depends as the punk scene, goth scene etc are divided internally as well. Some really kept the ideals and spirit of the original punk bands while others grew more mainstream where music is more important than ideology. In fact you could say that while both claim to be punk, in practice both are a different group of people alltogether who often don't even listen to the same bands. The old punk spirit is definitely still there, although the ones who kept the real spirit alive are now a seperate group that exists next to another group who claim to be punk as well but have totally different values.

I see the same in my own scene, the gothic scene. Lot of more recently joined goths care mainly about the fashion and imagery and music without paying too much attention to the political undertone of the original gothscene (the bands these people listen to are often more modern goth bands who don't have much of that political element). And then the other group, unfortunately getting smaller in numbers, are the old school goths who kept the original socially/politically loaded spirit alive and stick to mainly older goth bands who still focus on the spirit and values of the scene as it started off. If I look here in Berlin for example, the goth scene has several pubs where one pub focusses on those old school goths especially, while the other three goth clubs focus more on that other group of goths for whom the original values of the scene are not priority.

I can only comment on gothic scene as it is "my scene" and punk scene (as it is very close to gothic, at least the original punk movement) but I cannot comment on hiphop or metal scene for example. But in gothic and punk, the original spirit is still there, the group for whom that spirit is still there is just becoming smaller while the more recent goths and punks (the more mainstream-focussed) become a bigger group. I do think the original values and spirit of the subcultures will survive, although in a small underground format.

I wonder if maybe they cross-bred punk and rap, poor people might stop dividing themselves as much and create a whole new breed of music?

To the old school punks and goths, it is still about idealism and attitude. The spirit has not died really. What did happen is that those people now form the minority while the more mainstream punks/goths became the majority. But the original spirit and ideals are still there, it just became a more underground smaller yet determined group of people.

I do classify myself as old school goth and don't really like the more modern day gothic approach. The fetish image, the current goth music, ... Not really my style and I don't visit such goth bars often anymore. I do still enjoy that one old school goth bar with a much smaller number of visitors but the ones that come really still have the spark and idealism of the first generation of goths.

Still though, I'm wondering if punk and rap should breed a child in the music industry, one that can unite the poor, beyond music or race or any of that... Something pure, gutter, anti-establishment, against "the man".... That could bring the working class together..... Still, it's just a pipe dream because even if it did take place, I don't doubt it'd get compromised. The music industry is a very controlled industry now days.

So, where do the people who don't listen to any kind of music fall?

I don't think they are actually related because Punk started off in Britain with bands like the Pistols and the Clash etc, and while the punks and skinheads dressed different to everyone else, they were relatively harmless. Similar to the Teddy Boys and Mods frim the earlier Rock & Roll days. Hip Hop, on the other hand has lyrics that condone violence and violent acts and the people who listen to it are more into commiting those acts than just listening to the music. Say for example, you have a lyric in a rap song that says 'niggas kill all honkies, rape all ho's', then because of the audience, they will more than likely go out and do it. Whereas with the old punk bands, like the Pistols and the Clash, even though the punks and skinheads listened and united under the lyrics, I doubt whether 'We're so pretty, you're so pretty VACANT!' or 'London's Calling' would have inspired the same result. Besides, both movements were at least a decade apart.

Well I wouldn't call any gang harmless, that includes skinheads. But I see where your coming from though. But, on the other hand, it could get the working class on the same page, boost morale.... I am against gangs, where poor people destroy one another. However, I am not against a coalition of the willing..... And not all rap is condoning mindless violence, just the s**t they push in the mainstream.... Rock has lost it's balls in the mainstream (though it should have never went ms in the 1st place).
But, as I said, even **if** something like this were to take place, the music industry is so controlled now it'd never get through the filters to have enough impact to make any waves, because it'd end up being compromised, unfortunately.

And besides, the internet will f**k it anyway.