Intersex and Marriage.

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Well, a bit of backstory first.

As some of you may or may not know, I'm a month and a half into hormone treatment in a gender change process.

As I've been going through this process, I've done large amounts of research on various topics relating to gender, sexuality, and the natural occurance of transgenderism.

This led me into a study of the intersex conditions, and I discovered that I have numerous "tells" for Klinefelter's Syndrome. (clinodactyly, small hands, rounded shoulders and hips, smooth skin, elevated estrogen levels, gynecomastia, small testes)

This has all come up in the last week, so I haven't had an opportunity yet to to speak with a doctor, but I have an appointment with my endocrinologist tomorrow, and I plan on talking to him about this and asking for a Karotype.

For those who haven't gone to look it up, Klinefelters is a genetic abnormality in which one or more extra X chromosomes are present due to a failure to divide during cellular development of the fetus. (Meiosis or Mitosis, I don't remember which)

Essentially, I think I have two X's. But I also have a Y.

So, where does the church stand on marriage for intersexed individuals? (I'm looking for the theists to respond). Am I allowed a certain fluidity of gender due to the condition?

How about some of the other ones, like 5-alpha reductase deficiency, in which the child is born appearing outwardly female, but at puberty actually begins developing male secondary sexual characteristics, and has a shallow vagina that requires surgery for penetrative sex to occur?

How about Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, in which the individual is XY, but there body is immune, or partially immune, to the effects of androgens, so they develop along the default female pattern, until the reach puberty and don't virilize either way. except to continue getting taller?

I'm just curious as to the actual position of various churches on the rights of these individuals, and who they're allowed to marry, if at all?

Short answer? Religion says anything abnormal is bad and should be burned with cleansing fire.

Good luck with your sex-change! And I hope you find some answers about your genetics (I don't have any idea about the religious questions- sorry). I worked with a little boy with Klinefelter's, but he was only 6, so he was too young to be dealing with these kinds of issues. HOWEVER- I did find it interesting that he always chose the girl figure when we played Chutes and Ladders, so I did wonder which gender he identified with more (maybe I'm reading too much into it but it was still interesting).

Or at least forbidden from entering the temple or living in the community.

Honestly, Flutter, I don't know how you handle this situation without going insane! That Y chromosome means that you're male, but that extra X chromo has surely messed things up for you.

I sincerely hope that the results of your treatment are to your satisfaction and good health.

Best Wishes,

Fnord

Heh....

I have gone selectively insane through the years.

Am I male if I'm infertile? (I don't know that of a certainty.... it hasn't really been tested, but most XXY individuals can't reproduce) and have a female body shape, mixed hormone levels, but still have a penis?

If I have SRS, assuming I am infertile anyways, does the church have a position on what I am?

I suppose this might not be the best forum to be asking these questions. lol.

Yes, that nasty Y chromo makes all the difference. Even men with vasectomies or who have been castrated are still men, due to old Mr. Y.


You would have to ask at different churches and get a consensus opinion. According to the Bible, you are what God made you, and He loves you regardless. But religious dogma may dictate otherwise.


Maybe not, since I know of no other persons with your condition, and there is no guaranty not many other members would completely understand it.

Can your physician or counselor recommend a support group in your area?

Last edited by Fnord on 25 Nov 2008, 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I have tears in my eyes, and a lot of sympathy for you. It's people with your condition that make me wonder just how static God views your sexuality to actually be. I mean, what is it supposed to be static as, in your case? Yes, you're on the male side of the divide, but not by much. There are those even closer to the divide, or so I hear, and even those who appear to be directly upon it. I think you'd definitely be allowed a certain fluidity of gender by God for one-time transitional purposes. I think the point of the Bible's promotion of heterosexual relationships against homosexual ones is meant to keep the social order, especially at the time it was written.

(I cannot exclude other reasons that God might have, though, for indeed, "How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!" -- Romans 11:33b.
I will never second-guess God, but I will often second-guess my understanding of Him.)

An attitude of disobedience is what is sinful, and not the state of being born with specific physical difficulties that make your Biblical morality more difficult to track than with most people. The state of your will toward God is the issue, not your gender/sexuality.

Regarding the dividing line between male and female, the Bible does speak to that:


(Matt 19:9-13)

Also, no church has authority to create binding Christian doctrine. They may teach their own opinions,
but the Bible is the higher authority. But I realize you are speaking to Catholicism, which teaches that the church
makes the actual rules of what's righteous and what's sinful. They believe themselves to have superseded the Bible in that regard, for the Bible has more than plenty to say about all issues of right and wrong, as well as about its own authority in those matters.

well goodluck with that guy, ive seen msnbc specials on people changing there sexual parts and i gotta say its dangerous! one guy had a heart attack from taking too much estrogen or something

^ If that is true, then I would think it would make you realize how important it is to her...to be willing to take such risk.

what is that supose to mean? of course its true. im not hating on him for wanting to be female, im just saying its dangerous but im shure hes fully aware of the danger

Your problem as presented seems mostly to deal with how religion reacts to your condition. Although religious documents like the Bible and the Qur'an claim to be the word of God they obviously have been formulated from very old tribal prejudices and cultural norms and if you feel the necessity to conform to their dogmas you have a real problem since the subtleties of your problem are unknown territory for these documents. I certainly cannot advise you about your beliefs but you should think out these problems yourself without any sense of guilt about your genetics.

your pronoun usage is slipping.

more of an intellectual curiousity, I don't base my morals on religious dogma, but rational thought.

Then there should be no concern for how "The Church" views your particular condition.

Interesting intellectual question. Secular humanistis shouldn't be so uncurious as displayed here with the "never, never try to look from a believer's perspective and see if there belief is intellectually coherent." Maybe not rational as rationality excludes the supernatural in almost all cases, but intellectual coherence is a fascinating topic.

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches would probably have the most developed ideas on intersexuality as historically they have had eunuchs, celibacy, monasticism and other historic curiousities that seem odd to our modern hetronormality. I think they would say there is only one gender an individual could be and science could help determine the true nature of the person if appearances are questionable. Also note, mainstream Christian belief over the ages has viewed neither the soul or God as having a gender, God being referred to and depicted as 'God the Father' due to Greek philosophic principles of active/passive referring to male and female.

Consider also that maritial theology and rules are stricter than most moderns would deem acceptable. Impotency, not intending to have children (unless intending to have a sexless Josephite marriage), and other restictions apply so that intersexuality - in the past called hermaphroditism, would likely be a marital impediment.

Ultimately, intersexuality could be explained by them through the concept original sin, mankind and also animals became corrupted through Adam and Eve (this would explain human and animal homosexuality). Good question, flutter.

well much like alot of things in my life there goin' downhill and fast

i wasnt trying to make fun of you, i was just shocked when i saw this one show and a guy had a tremendous ammount of health problems due to all the female drugs he was taking. have you expeirianced any nasty side effects?