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history_of_psychiatry
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20 Jan 2009, 8:04 pm

that MANY MANY more innocent palestinians are killed than innocent israelis. But I guess israel is "just defending itself".

http://mwcnews.net/content/view/27795/42/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_i ... 15.2C_2006


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Vexcalibur
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20 Jan 2009, 9:17 pm

You just mentioned the z word.

Please... could we be serious now?

Anyway, of course the massacres are bad. But really, Zionists? What's next? Illuminati?


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slowmutant
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20 Jan 2009, 10:18 pm

history_of_psychiatry wrote:
that MANY MANY more innocent palestinians are killed than innocent israelis. But I guess israel is "just defending itself".

http://mwcnews.net/content/view/27795/42/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_i ... 15.2C_2006


War is awful no matter who is being killed. What's the point of favouring one sie over the other if you are outside the Middle East?

Obviously you have an axe to grind with someone.



JerryHatake
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20 Jan 2009, 10:24 pm

^Well Israel has the right to protect itself and defend itself from foreign (Basic right of any sovereign nation). The same concept is with the US with its War on Terrorism. Israel is basically protecting its borders. Civilians will always be in harm's way during wars and conflicts.


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slowmutant
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20 Jan 2009, 10:39 pm

To claim that one side is the agressor and other isn't ... well ... they're both aggressors. They have been victimized by each other, and the lives of Palestianians are of no more or less value than those of Israelis. Both sides of the conflict are equally wrong because both sides have spilled innocent blood.

There!



JerryHatake
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20 Jan 2009, 10:56 pm

slowmutant wrote:
To claim that one side is the agressor and other isn't ... well ... they're both aggressors. They have been victimized by each other, and the lives of Palestianians are of no more or less value than those of Israelis. Both sides of the conflict are equally wrong because both sides have spilled innocent blood.

There!


Its more complex than that because this is an issue that has exist for over thousands of years. (Judaism and Islam just have not been able to get along with each other) However its the extremists on both sides to blame because non-extremists are more peacefully (True Islam and Judaism). They are able to coexist in Israel with Christians as well. Also this is the way for those government-sponsored terrorist groups to get at the US via attacking Israel. (The US supports Israel thus makes sense to terrorists to strike)


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psych
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21 Jan 2009, 5:09 am

Quote:
that MANY MANY more innocent palestinians are killed than innocent israelis. But I guess israel is "just defending itself".


This might interest you, as its been signed by literally 100s of academics from all over the UK.
I think you could call this definitely anti-zionist - if you define political zionism as aggressive expansionism.

Quote:
The massacres in Gaza are the latest phase of a war that Israel has been waging against the people of Palestine for more than 60 years. The goal of this war has never changed: to use overwhelming military power to eradicate the Palestinians as a political force, one capable of resisting Israel's ongoing appropriation of their land and resources. Israel's war against the Palestinians has turned Gaza and the West Bank into a pair of gigantic political prisons. There is nothing symmetrical about this war in terms of principles, tactics or consequences. Israel is responsible for launching and intensifying it, and for ending the most recent lull in hostilities.

Israel must lose. It is not enough to call for another ceasefire, or more humanitarian assistance. It is not enough to urge the renewal of dialogue and to acknowledge the concerns and suffering of both sides. If we believe in the principle of democratic self-determination, if we affirm the right to resist military aggression and colonial occupation, then we are obliged to take sides... against Israel, and with the people of Gaza and the West Bank.

We must do what we can to stop Israel from winning its war. Israel must accept that its security depends on justice and peaceful coexistence with its neighbours, and not upon the criminal use of force.

We believe Israel should immediately and unconditionally end its assault on Gaza, end the occupation of the West Bank, and abandon all claims to possess or control territory beyond its 1967 borders. We call on the British government and the British people to take all feasible steps to oblige Israel to comply with these demands, starting with a programme of boycott, divestment and sanctions.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ja ... -petitions



PhR33kY
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21 Jan 2009, 5:31 am

Both sides are guilty of atrocities. Saying one side is justified while the other is not is highly unethical.


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slowmutant
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21 Jan 2009, 9:15 am

PhR33kY wrote:
Both sides are guilty of atrocities. Saying one side is justified while the other is not is highly unethical.


Agreed.



monty
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21 Jan 2009, 12:05 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
^Well Israel has the right to protect itself and defend itself from foreign (Basic right of any sovereign nation). The same concept is with the US with its War on Terrorism. Israel is basically protecting its borders. Civilians will always be in harm's way during wars and conflicts.


Yes, but it is not so simple. For the past year, Israel has restricted food and fuel going into Gaza, while expanding settlements on occuppied territory. Do the Palestinians not have a right to resist such measures? Was that blockade not an act of aggression against Gaza??

And what of the notion of proportionality, or common sense? Rockets from Gaza have killed about 15 people in the last five years. Israel lost 13 people in the recent adventure (less than a month), with no prospect of increased security. So it is hard to see it as a good investment in Israel's security.

And the recent attack saw 3 Israeli civilians die, while they killed about 900 civilians in Gaza. So in terms of proportionality, it is like "an eye for an eyelash." According to game theory, such disproportionate responses escalate and perpetuate conflict.

I think that the attack was carefully timed to co-incide with US politics, and had less to do with security than with securing the expansion of Israel and locking down the status quo.

Meanwhile, Israel (which has been described as a bastion of democracy) has stripped its Arab citizens of the rights to have candidates in the next Israeli election. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054867.html



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21 Jan 2009, 12:23 pm

JerryHatake wrote:
^Well Israel has the right to protect itself and defend itself from foreign (Basic right of any sovereign nation). The same concept is with the US with its War on Terrorism. Israel is basically protecting its borders. Civilians will always be in harm's way during wars and conflicts.


But you do realize the death rates of Palestinians is far far more higher than the Israelis which means many civilians are being killed in the middle of it?

I have to ask if most of Israel's actions in the military is based on protocol. I also have to say that to say that to state civilians will always be in harm's way is unfair justification with what's been done. If you're going to say that Israel needs to protect its borders from terrorism I don't see why more Palestinians would refute if half of their people are getting killed. I think this will only create more terrorist groups in the making of this.


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21 Jan 2009, 12:28 pm

I take no sides in this conflict.

I do not consider either side to have greater justification to aggress against its neighbour or to be morally superior. As far as biblical prophesies go, I'm emotionally uncommitted. I care less about the End Times than I do about the here and now.



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21 Jan 2009, 12:38 pm

MissConstrue wrote:
JerryHatake wrote:
^Well Israel has the right to protect itself and defend itself from foreign (Basic right of any sovereign nation). The same concept is with the US with its War on Terrorism. Israel is basically protecting its borders. Civilians will always be in harm's way during wars and conflicts.


But you do realize the death rates of Palestinians is far far more higher than the Israelis which means many civilians are being killed in the middle of it?

I have to ask if most of Israel's actions in the military is based on protocol. I also have to say that to say that to state civilians will always be in harm's way is unfair justification with what's been done. If you're going to say that Israel needs to protect its borders from terrorism I don't see why more Palestinians would refute if half of their people are getting killed. I think this will only create more terrorist groups in the making of this.


Who gets to decide what terrorism is?



Rafter613
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21 Jan 2009, 10:11 pm

Saying that it is unfair for Israel to retaliate even with disproportionate strength is unfair. The government can't be expected to sit back and tell the citizens "We can't fight back, we might injure the people bombing us". You also can't expect them to say "Well, we killed 14 Palestinians, now we're even, let's go home" Any side will always value their members more then the other side.
P.S. Since I go to a self-proclaimed Zionistic school, I can't claim to be unbiased, but I try to get both sides of the story, it's just hard when saying "but aren't hundreds of people being injured by Israelis" is tantamount to heresy >.<


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Bataar
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22 Jan 2009, 1:23 am

The blockade was established because of the Palestinians firing rockets into Israel, not the other way around. Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. The Palestinian people voted in Hamas in 2007 who have continued the violence against Israel. If Israel completely pulled back to the 1967 borders everyone says they want, does anyone really believe that the violence would end, that the Palestinians wouldn't view that action as a sign that they are capable of beating Israel and continue to press their attacks? If you believe that, God help you.



DentArthurDent
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22 Jan 2009, 2:29 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
You just mentioned the z word.

Please... could we be serious now?

Anyway, of course the massacres are bad. But really, Zionists? What's next? Illuminati?


Zionist unlike the Illuminati are a historical group (unless you are talking about the Bavarian group who formed in 1776). They had their first recorded meeting in 1897 and decided in 1906 that Palestine should be the Jewish homeland, they continue to this day, check your facts before you make derogatory comments


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