Genesis chapter 3 verse 22?

Post Reply New Topic

Is the one God an "us"?

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever."

This has got me crazy! I can't make sense of it.

It's an allusion to the Trinity. A similar example can be found in John chapter 1.

I've heard "us" is an allusion to all divine beings, i.e. all the angels, demons, God himself, etc.

Basically, when Man ate of the Tree of Knowledge, if he had retained access to the Tree of Life he would have basically elevated himself to the level of the angels, which would have been overstepping his place in the universe.

ive heard in earlier versions god is usually stated as plural. get your head round that

I'm not much into the Bible but the legend seems to indicate that Satan was deeply involved in Eve's temptation and fall and since Satan was a creation of God it would seem that all the problems stem from God's schizophrenia. Perhaps that is the "us" in question. The role of Satan is also rather peculiar. He is apparently still a member of the godly pantheon although there is no doubt he is far nastier than Adam and Eve.

Anyone here read Hebrew? If we're going to nitpick on the implications of individual words, we really need to read the text in the original language, with an understanding of context and customary linguistic usage. In any case, using the plural first-person when only referring to oneself isn't completely unheard of. Royalty used to do it all the time- read any edict or fiat of the Russian Czars, and you'll see Catherine the Great referring to herself as "We."

And the fabulous Tom Thumb referring to himself as wee. Nobody ever figured how tall God could be.

A morally sentient being with free will who can never die is a god. The original god did not want any competition, so He(She or It) banned Adam and Eve for taking the first step to becoming gods themselves.

Such a being is capable of doing great harm without suffering enough consequences to being prevented from doing further harm. Think about it. One of the constraints on your behavior or mine (for that matter) is the fear of death. What if we were immortal. Then we would be potentially very dangerous and most likely very dangerous given our morally imperfect nature. Just because Adam and Eve knew the difference between right and wrong, did not prevent them from doing wrong every now and again. So consider the case of Adam and Eve not only knowing the difference between right and wrong, but being imperfect in acting on that difference, yet bullet proof with regard to the consequences of their doings. That all adds up to Bad News.

All of this is my way of making sense out of the verse from Genesis.

ruveyn

You are not required to make sense out of the Bible. The demand is that you believe it and obey its commands. That's what is meant by faith. Intelligent analysis is the main opponent of religion.

Speak for yourself. In the Jewish tradition, one is required to attempt to reconcile seemingly inconsistent or obscure aspects of both the written and oral tradition. It is called, in transliteration from the Hebrew --midrash. That means one seeks clarification and meaning and one is obliged to question his teachings even from the greatest authorities. That is the difference between Judaism and other religions. We are not -allowed- to park our brains in the driveway to the synagogue. We have to take them inside with us. That is why Judaism is the perfect religion for Aspies. Getting Jews to think alike on certain important issues is akin to herding cats. As the well known joke goes, where ever three Jews discuss and argue, four opinions (at least) emerge.

There is no such thing as consensus among Jews passionate about their positions. Only a truce. Not a consensus.

ruveyn

Not in any way being religious, I always speak for myself.
Watch the behavior of passionate acquisitive Jews on the West Bank seems to indicate the the problem of herding cats insofar as orthodox Jews is concerned seems well solved.

Not a Hebrew expert here, but I do know that Elohim is one of the words used for God in Genesis, and technically, it's a plural form. Whether or not it refers to a former pantheon of gods isn't clear - Hebrew apparently has other words which appear to be plural but refer to a singular entity - but I'm guessing that 'we' and 'us' might be used in reference to that.

It is still the case with the British Monarch. Whilst Elizabeth II uses in normal speech the 1st Person singular (e. g. "I am ..."), in formal proclamations, Royal Charters, etc. the "Pluralis Majestatis" is still used. A typical example from the current Royal Charter of the BBC dated 2006:




http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctrust/assets/fi ... harter.pdf

Edit: I am not certain, when the Royal We ("Pluralis Majestatis") exactly appeared. In the Concordat of Worms 1122 both the Emperor Herny V and Pope Calixts II used the 1st person singular ("Ego Heinricus Dei gratia Romanorum imperator augustus ..." and "Ego Calixtus episcopus servus servorum Dei ..."). When Emperor Fredrick II issued in 1235 the Mainzer Reichs-Landfriede in German, he already used the Plural: "Wir setzen und gebieten von unser keiserlicher gewalt und mit der fursten rat und ander des riches getruwen: ..."

Further Edit: This seems also the case in England. The "Charter of Liberties" of King Herny I of 1100 used also the singular form, whilst the Magna Carta of King John already used the plural form.

So the swift in the form happened any time around 1200.

Last edited by Dussel on 05 Apr 2009, 9:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

That is just about the only one of two issues that the Gush Emunim (the ultra right, ultra religious West Bank Jews agree on). Issue one: The land was given by God Himself to the Jews. I don't believe it, but they do.

Two: the Palestinians must go for they are Amalekites. That I do believe.

On just about everything else a meeting of these people is a hoot. Like I said, it is akin to herding cats.

ruveyn

Permit me doubts about the uniform temperaments of all Jews. Your predisposition to characterize an entire culture's membership is, to my perception, somewhat along the lines of all black people got rhythm, all Poles are rather dense, all Italians cannot resist pinching women's behinds, all Moslems are terrorists, all Catholics refuse condoms, etc. There is a word for that.

Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
-Isaiah 44:6