An invitation into a convoluted thought process.

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A recent 'tick me off' has had me pondering my own personal thought processes concerning other people's views of ethnicity. This is something I have gone over countless times in my life, but always seem to end up in the same place. This will be a first for me, as far as inviting others into my own introspection but over the last year I have had to face that many of my conclusions about myself and others might be wrong. I have decided to ask for your point of view on this because I am aware my own personal experiences make it impossible for me to evaluate it with anything other than tainted bias, and I have grown comfortable with many of you and respect your opinions.

I have long held the view that racism is innate in everyone. I have stated this view here and have offended people with my perspective. There have been a couple of people in my life who almost convinced me otherwise, but something always eventually came up which sent me back to my old views. Now, if racism is inate, that would make me a racist too...right? So I call myself a racist right along with everyone else.

Although they are few, every meaningful true friendship I have ever had was with a racist. Everyone I have ever loved or who has loved me is racist. If racism is inate, then it can be accepted because it just 'is'. I can say...sure...this person has racist views but they are able to recognize it for what it is and be honest about it...after all, one cannot help someting innate. This causes me to feel less anger toward racist thoughts in others, but rather be angry with those whom I view as unwilling to simply admit their views are racist.

Once, I was describing what I see to be my racist views toward all ethnicities, including my own. A member here, who claims to have no racist views, told me they did not see my views to be racist at all but rather a defence system I have created as a response to the racism of others. I thought it was very kind of them to say I am not a racist, but refused accept both their point of view and their claim of being racism free. Because if they are right and racism is not innate, then this rocks the very foundation of the coping mechanism which allows me to trust a racist.

And so goes one of the twisting little spirals in my head. Any thoughts?

claire why would you want to trust a racist? it sounds like your upbringing has done some sort of damage, but eveyones upbringing usually has. its a fact of life, another fact of life is racism. just spend some time in the pen and you'll see that only people of the same race hangout together. im assuming your talking about me and the whole indian drinking thing but my intentions were not ment to offend anyone. i was just trying to explaine my position on why legalizing all drugs wouldnt be a good idea. sorry if it offended you, but political correctness isnt one of my strong qualitys

Why would I want to trust a racist? Because I need to trust my friends and the people I love. If I cannot trust them, I cannot trust anyone. I know racism is a fact of life. What I want to know is if it is inate. I know you were not projecting anything at me personally. I know what people think of Indians. I was more upset by you stating your views were not racist. I could have gone into the drawn out business of refuting your claims, down to shamanism not even being an American Indian religion, but who cares...lots of people think these things. If you would like to discuss Indians further, feel free to send me a pm. That is just the surface. I am trying to go deeper here...looking for a specific answer.

ahh. ok, i admit i dont know alot about indians religions, only that there culture uses alot of drugs for everyday living. and to answer your question about is it inate, i think it is. the same thing going on here is when a person divorces, has kids from the previous marraige and usually if the person there curently married to has kids the step-parent treats the kids of the previous marriage alot worse than there own biological children

I view this opinion as being incorrect.
The whole concept of "race"/ethnicity was introduced to me externally and explicitly years before I began to conceptualize it as anything with any baring on modern day reality. I thought "races" were things some people could trace in their ancestry, the way some people could trace royalty in their ancestry. I failed to connect physical characteristics with "race" for many years. I knew people had different physical traits, and that these might give some clue to "race" in their ancestry, but that was about as sophisticated as my conceptualization of race was for most of my child-hood. I certainly never associated "race" with behavior, worth or anything of modern day relevance.

If anything is innate, it is not racism so much as the propensities that give rise to racism. In particular environmental circumstances, given these innate propensities, racism becomes overwhelmingly likely. Generalization, for instance is an important element of "racism" entailing stereotyping.

As a child, I failed to generalize physical features into "racial features" and this probably was a significant barrier to acquiring racism.

Generalizing and stereotyping, are very important tools in the human social conceptualization tool-box. They render very complicated bodies of information into easily (cognitively) handled simplifications and short cuts, and facilitate snap judgments and pre-judgments (also known as prejudice). You can see why a creature who has a propensity to generalize to applicable stereotypes is in danger of holding caricature like notions about whole groups, and thus being racist. If such a creature has an evolved propensity to feel more confident and secure when they feel as though they know what is going on, the functionality of stereotypes and generalizations is further enhanced, and there is additionally a discomfort cost in rejecting such generalizations.

Combine this with a social structure in which people of different "racial groups" are isolated in contrast to the relative familiarity they have for people of their own "racial group", and racism becomes very very likely.

So I disagree that racism is innate. But there are innate propensities that make the development/acquisition of racism, very likely. Very often these innate propensities are coupled with an environment that makes the acquisition of racism, overwhelmingly likely. Instead of an innate trait, we have innate traits mediated by environment. Both the traits and the environment are "non-chosen", so you can still view your racist friends as victims of their innate traits as mediated by their non-chosen environment if you wish to avoid feeling angry at them.

Thinking back over the people I've known in my life, I'm certain that racism is awfully common, so I'd assume it represents something deeply implanted in how the human mind is put together.

I think it's appropriate to look at the question of whether it's possible to move beyond what's innate. Does innate racism mean something that's always going to be there or is it just an innate tendency toward racism?

Looking inside myself, the whole question gets really confusing. I'm a white guy, but I've generally had better experiences with blacks, latinos, and native-type indians than I have with people of my own race or with asians.

I do tend to make assumptions about people based on their race, but I've also known so many exceptions in every race that I recognize with certainty that these assumptions are only assumptions and that everybody is an individual.

I'm not sure if that's racist or not. Is it racist to make good assumptions about somebody of another race?

You always have something thought provoking to say, pandd. ...something inate about it, but environmental rather than biologic. I will certainly give that more thought. I do not know about feeling sorry for my racist friends, the victims, though. That part made me laugh a bit, but I guess I might have to resort to such things if I am to adopt your point of view.


Inate means inborn, so I would have to say no...It cannot be overcome if it is inate, except maybe through a long evolutionary process. I am also not sure about inate tendencies. Anything with the word inate sounds really hard to overcome. I have always said yes, and also see this in myself toward some races. The definition of racism is a generalization toward a race which implies one race is surerior or inferior to another race or races. So, yes...thinking one race is better than another in some way is by definition racist.

Interesting but I do have one different experience regarding myself and then those who were racist.

When I was little and saw black people among other different ethnicities, I never thought of race or how different they were. I just thought it was like having blonde hair and brown hair.

It wasn't until my neighbor who was racist against blacks complained about "them" using the words n****r and such. I honestly did not know or have this odd complexity about colored people growing up. I was not very comfortable around my neighbor given that he was also very bigoted toward everything else. My parents were very tolerant people and never even brought up the notion of race till we were a little older.

My half brother who is racist has been in prison three times. I do not feel comfortable around him not JUST because he is racist but because he act rudely towards black people. I can tell when he's getting smart with someone at a fast food resteraunt once and it doesn't take much to know that this person he's making sublime but nasty jokes at are black. This has caused many conflicts between me and him and the rest of the family.

This is just coming from a personal experience of mine. I don't really know what causes people to be racism in a biological concept.

Pandd also made this same arguement. Since it has been mentioned twice, I guess I should address it. I also do not recall being aware of racial differences as a small child. However, it is quite possible we simply do not realize or recall this from childhood. When my child, who is very fair, first began kindergarten, we were waiting in the car line at their school and they saw a girl from their class. They told me they did not like that girl and it made them feel bad. When I asked why it made them feel bad, they told me they did not like her because of her skin. When I asked why that made them feel bad, they said...'because you have brown skin'. They certainly were not taught this at home and had just begun school, so was not affected by others. If anything has ever made innate racism a concrete notion for me, it was from the mouth of a babe.

Last edited by claire-333 on 23 Apr 2009, 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That's a very kind comment, and quite flattering coming from someone I happen to respect.


Both. The biologically innate qualities are not innate racism, but rather the underlying processes, which can be expressed as racism, but also can be expressed in other ways (for instance religious intolerance, or class snobbery).

Some of these propensities include "ingroup identification/outgroup alienation" where people see others they identify with as being more human/individual/nuanced, and tend to generalize outgroup people in a more over-simplified and stereotyped manner than they do those they identify with. Stereotyping and generalization (obviously) is another important underlying propensity, as is the need to feel as though one knows what is going on.

Also the tendency to culturally acquire world views that feel objectively real and tend to go unquestioned as an objective truth (when those who do not "know this truth" act contrary to it, the tendency is to judge them according to that truth; as "race" can often coincide with cultural differentiation, this easily results in judging people according to a cultural truth that the judger views as objective reality, leading to a denigrated opinion of those being judged) further facilitates racism.

When the environment is one in which people are more or less familiar and form ingroup/outgroup identity in approximate accordance with "racial" identity, given the above innate biological propensities, racism is overwhelmingly likely. Most human environments for most of human history, have entailed "racially influenced/determined" association/affiliation/identification, so racism is rather common.

There is an innate preference for "one's own kind". We tend to associate with and mate with people who look and act like us. This kind of solidarity, is probably a survival characteristic which is why it is "wired in" to our species. That is quite evident from the fact that the family is the natural unit of human association. Families stick together. And families of families band together and stand together against Outsiders, particularly against those having another language or different customs. This is a tendency that is both generalized and suppressed in civilizations. From a legal point of view we are compelled to recognize the rights of The Stranger and the Outsider, but we are encouraged to put our Nationality ahead of other Nationalities.

It is as natural as farting so don't feel to guilty about it. Mankind is not a brotherhood. At most, we are distant cousins to each other.

ruveyn

Whenever I meet someone, I tell them to roll their tongue. If they can roll their tongue, I will recognize them as someone of my own kind, therefore somebody I can trust, and I will salute them. If they can't roll their tongue, I will recognize them as sub-human, lazy and mean and not of my kind, and I will knock them unconscious and run away screaming.

A thought experiment:

On an isolated, moderate sized island, there are exactly 2 races, each with their own culture.

A man from from one race marries a woman from the other, and they have lots of kids.


1) Are the kids inherently racist?

2) Since the kids have partial membership in each race equally, against which race would they properly direct their racism? What would racism on the part of the children involve other than learned behaviors from members of one race or the other?


Additionally, one of the races has a uniform eye color (brown), while the other race has a variety of eye colors (blue, green, and brown).

3) Can we consider the race with multiple eye colors to be a true race, or is a mixture of races?

4) Must there be racism between the people with green eyes and the people with blue eyes?


Over time, the two races mix and one unified culture emerges.

5) Are all members of the island still inherently racist?

I think that racial distinctions are innate in the human populous. With that said, racism will always exist, whether it be an environmental tool established on fear, or a cultural norm of a familial group, or whatever the cause of it is. I don't think it is incorrect to say that in general, racism is innate in human beings. There is a potential inside every single human being to form a racist idea, thought, or behavior. Action does not define all forms and manners in which people are racist. There are many different types of racism and attitudes that constitute support of racism in its different forms. There is no need to label everyone "a racist", or even one's self if it isn't really an outward focus. I find it valuable to self regulate any negative thoughts or opinions that I may form about a race or culture. I have a very racist family, but I find their attitudes and opinions unacceptable. That isn't to say that I've never felt a sense of my upbringing in my own experience with people of other races. I forgo labeling myself "a racist", altogether, even though I inherited a racist family. I choose not to break myself down that way.

Claire, I apologize because I failed to mention that I also grew up around black people. My family knew one guy in particular that would bring his nieces over to play with us. So I was already exposed to colored people early on in my life. Maybe a reason why it didn't take me by surprise in school. As for remembering it back in childhood, I really don't....not that I can go that far back to when I was 3 and before then. It wasn't much of an issue until I was much older.

I'm still confused about this issue. I know that we all have prejudices we're willing not to accept and I think you brought up a good taboo subject but I guess with my problem, I have trouble being articulate. Whenever I come up with a controversial topic, I have to choose my words carefully which is still hard for me. One of the many reasons I steer clear of them unless I have it all thought out carefully and willing to back up my arguements because yes people will argue especially here in the PPR forum.

My only question I guess that's boggling me is what you mean by accepting.

Racism can be expressed in many ways. Some people don't express them overtly like others. I had to accept that from my granny even though she never expressed out loud and didn't hate all black people.

So I guess what I'm trying to get at is the question of acceptance. If my child did what your child did, you're right I wouldn't punish her or get all crazy since it's what she experienced and it might've been natural unless she heard it from someone else in school. I would however, educate her that it's wrong to treat people differently based on the color of their skin just as my mom did.

So therein, lies the irony of acceptance.

No. People are not inherently racist. People are simply taught starting very early in their careers as people that a "human being" is a "certain kind of thing." In fact, it is our responsibility as parents to safeguard against this by trying to expose them to a variety of different kinds of people, so they won't grow up to feel confused whenever they are around black people, indians, Indians, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Azeri, etc.. It is very cruel to teach our young, "a person looks like this," and then expect that child to take easily to being around people who do not fit that description. If a child was never taught that it is "normal" for some people to be black, then that child is going to always feel that there is something just not quite right about those black people. They were given a certain standard to go by, and it should be no surprise that they think people who don't quite match have something wrong with them. This is not some despicable aspect of human behavior, and it is not fair to judge people for it. The learning process is not a perfect or flawless thing. We should keep ourselves acutely aware of this fact, or we will screw ourselves up.

To succeed in avoiding racist behavior, we must teach ourselves a certain level of cognitive flexibility from early on. We must shove diversity down our own throats, our children's throats, and each other's throats because it's not something we take to very naturally. It is not a normal thing in our evolutionary history to be surrounded by people who look almost like completely different species. It is not natural, organic, or environmentally friendly to try to swallow the fact that two individuals who look no more alike than a wolf and a coyote are really members of exactly the same species and in every possible respect equal to one another. In fact, it's really not fair at all that we are born into a world that is so confusing and apparently inane. The only thing that makes it better is trying to get used to it as early as possible, so we don't feel like we're taking a cold shower every time we hear some strange, weird thing with dark, black skin that makes it look like it's turning into a grape open its mouth and start talking to us in perfect English.

No, racism is NOT inherent. In fact, it's not our fault that life insists on being strange, convoluted, and nonsensical all the time. That's why most of us think it's easier to go through life believing that some super-entity has it all under control and has some hidden purpose for all the madness. I don't hold this belief, but I honestly can't blame people who do. If it helps keep you feeling sane in this great, vast swamp, I won't begrudge you it.