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Haliphron
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24 Apr 2009, 7:43 pm

Ive come to the sobering conclusion that those who advocate Eugenics, particularly those with the power to direct policy, should be neutralized before they cause undue harm to innocent people. Any one else agree? Perhaps if Hitler, Himmler, and Mengele were selectively assassinated the Holocaust might have never happened.



pezar
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24 Apr 2009, 8:02 pm

I remember seeing (but not reading) a novel in which the Jewish protagonists go back in time and kill Hitler when he was a homeless bum. Then they return to their own time to find that the world is in much worse shape for Hitler never having lived.



MikeH106
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24 Apr 2009, 8:34 pm

I think we need a way to make the romantically rejected happy, to avoid being, for lack of a better term, a Species of F***ing Sadists. Every tender kiss and touch should not be at others' expense.

As luck would have it, this seems to be a very difficult problem. How are we going to save hearts from being broken?

If we cured every disease on the planet, wouldn't that allow people with 'worse' genes to get by in the world? What happens when one of their children is even more disabled? The idea of making the planet safe doesn't seem to guarantee that the suffering won't 'skid in' somehow.

A crucial idea of both Hinduism and Nietzschean philosophy is eternal recurrence. Scientists are discovering that the universe is governed by chance. Will I eternally recur as only myself and have only one future, as if trapped in a Hell (or hopefully, a Heaven) of being me? Or do I get the freedom to slide into a different outcome next time, maybe with a better-paying job or a girlfriend? Are such questions even meaningful?

Let's say that instead of curing diseases, we simply legalized voluntary euthanasia. Would people become reckless, understanding that they had voluntary euthanasia as a last resort for everything? Or would they value their lives enough that they would not? How do we know we wouldn't eternally recur as only ourselves to lead short-lived, unfulfilling, and never-ending lives? Is this just something we have to be afraid of? Or can it be proven that nature is kinder to us?

Let's say we allowed the romantically rejected to use drugs and have voluntary euthanasia under a eugenics program. Would this work? Would they understand that they were loved, that we cared about them? What would the life experience of such a drug-user be like? Would they mind the withdrawal effects?

Did Hitler choose which people to burn only by observing their physical appearance? Or did he intend to discourage failure, however it may be defined, by using painful means of extermination? Might he have felt in fury that the solution to heartbreak was to be found in a furnace? Can anyone justify such an excruciating regime? One thing is for sure: romantic rejection itself can be excruciating.

What do we do here? I can't just sit back and watch ourselves be called losers.

I'm struggling to find a solution to this problem. I don't want anyone's 'lovemaking' to essentially involve torturing me.


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24 Apr 2009, 8:50 pm

Haliphron wrote:
Ive come to the sobering conclusion that those who advocate Eugenics, particularly those with the power to direct policy, should be neutralized before they cause undue harm to innocent people. Any one else agree? Perhaps if Hitler, Himmler, and Mengele were selectively assassinated the Holocaust might have never happened.

No. You become the monster you wish to destroy.


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ToadOfSteel
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24 Apr 2009, 9:05 pm

I don't want to see any human eugenics research being done... you get a lot of Shatner looking like an idiot:

Image



Sand
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24 Apr 2009, 11:57 pm

MikeH106 wrote:
I think we need a way to make the romantically rejected happy, to avoid being, for lack of a better term, a Species of F***ing Sadists. Every tender kiss and touch should not be at others' expense.

As luck would have it, this seems to be a very difficult problem. How are we going to save hearts from being broken?

If we cured every disease on the planet, wouldn't that allow people with 'worse' genes to get by in the world? What happens when one of their children is even more disabled? The idea of making the planet safe doesn't seem to guarantee that the suffering won't 'skid in' somehow.

A crucial idea of both Hinduism and Nietzschean philosophy is eternal recurrence. Scientists are discovering that the universe is governed by chance. Will I eternally recur as only myself and have only one future, as if trapped in a Hell (or hopefully, a Heaven) of being me? Or do I get the freedom to slide into a different outcome next time, maybe with a better-paying job or a girlfriend? Are such questions even meaningful?

Let's say that instead of curing diseases, we simply legalized voluntary euthanasia. Would people become reckless, understanding that they had voluntary euthanasia as a last resort for everything? Or would they value their lives enough that they would not? How do we know we wouldn't eternally recur as only ourselves to lead short-lived, unfulfilling, and never-ending lives? Is this just something we have to be afraid of? Or can it be proven that nature is kinder to us?

Let's say we allowed the romantically rejected to use drugs and have voluntary euthanasia under a eugenics program. Would this work? Would they understand that they were loved, that we cared about them? What would the life experience of such a drug-user be like? Would they mind the withdrawal effects?

Did Hitler choose which people to burn only by observing their physical appearance? Or did he intend to discourage failure, however it may be defined, by using painful means of extermination? Might he have felt in fury that the solution to heartbreak was to be found in a furnace? Can anyone justify such an excruciating regime? One thing is for sure: romantic rejection itself can be excruciating.

What do we do here? I can't just sit back and watch ourselves be called losers.

I'm struggling to find a solution to this problem. I don't want anyone's 'lovemaking' to essentially involve torturing me.


Religious people continuously claim that the choices are between chance and the domination of a super intellect. Scientists have indicated from the beginning that the universe has very strong laws that control its dynamics without the intervention of a super intellect. Chance does play a part but to say it dominates is a total misrepresentation of science.



MikeH106
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25 Apr 2009, 7:00 am

To be more accurate, I could have written:

"Scientists are discovering that the universe is governed by laws of probability."


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25 Apr 2009, 7:01 am

depends how you define eugenics. I don't believe there are "undesirable" people either, but I also don't believe that people should be encouraged to procreate uncontrollably and live off state benefits without having worked a single day of their lives (like it is in some European countries). poverty runs in families and giving people a chance to parasite on the system is something I'd like to see removed.


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25 Apr 2009, 7:07 am

anna-banana wrote:
depends how you define eugenics. I don't believe there are "undesirable" people either, but I also don't believe that people should be encouraged to procreate uncontrollably and live off state benefits without having worked a single day of their lives (like it is in some European countries). poverty runs in families and giving people a chance to parasite on the system is something I'd like to see removed.


The way to see to it that people contribute to society by working is to see that there are opportunities available for their skills for work. not to cut off their balls.



ascan
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25 Apr 2009, 8:53 am

Haliphron wrote:
Ive come to the sobering conclusion that those who advocate Eugenics, particularly those with the power to direct policy, should be neutralized before they cause undue harm to innocent people. Any one else agree?

No I don't. I think you're oversimplifying a rather complicated issue. Human societies directly or indirectly utilise eugenics in the form of various social norms. For example within certain religions it would be considered inappropriate to marry someone of a different faith. One could argue (possibly, and someone better qualified may comment) that Ashkenazi Jews retain their high average IQ because of that. And how about the taboos regarding inter-racial marriage?

Then, to follow another line of thought, there's the British underclass. Socialist policies encourage them to breed at an astounding rate -- the more brats they produce, the more the state pays them. In fact, as I write this there's a government ad at the top of the screen offering money for just that! On the other hand, the professional classes are discouraged as they face huge financial penalties for reproducing. For example, private schooling (nobody with money and sense would even consider a state school). So, you have government policy selecting for reproduction of dimwits. Note, I'm not saying that all underclass people are dim, just that on average underclass people will be dimmer than those from the professions.

Like it or not for a society to survive, eugenics at some level must be considered. That doesn't necessarily mean stopping people reproducing, but could mean providing incentives.



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25 Apr 2009, 8:58 am

anna-banana wrote:
depends how you define eugenics. I don't believe there are "undesirable" people either, but I also don't believe that people should be encouraged to procreate uncontrollably and live off state benefits without having worked a single day of their lives (like it is in some European countries). poverty runs in families and giving people a chance to parasite on the system is something I'd like to see removed.


Ouch! >_<


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MikeH106
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25 Apr 2009, 9:07 am

'Parasite' is a word that people throw around a lot. But as someone who truly enjoys giving a helping hand to the homeless, I think it's kind of dumb.

They're not sucking from you. They're just asking for your help.

There are many people out there who are stuck in wheelchairs receiving disability income. Ask yourself this: Are they parasites?


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anna-banana
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25 Apr 2009, 9:45 am

MikeH106 wrote:
'Parasite' is a word that people throw around a lot. But as someone who truly enjoys giving a helping hand to the homeless, I think it's kind of dumb.

They're not sucking from you. They're just asking for your help.

There are many people out there who are stuck in wheelchairs receiving disability income. Ask yourself this: Are they parasites?


maybe you should read my post again. I'm talking specifically about people who live off child benefits and produce 5+ kids because of the profits that they can get. there are families who get accommodation sponsored by the state as well as heaps of money for having 10+ kids, then their kids get their own kids by the time they're 14 and so it goes on.

I am NOT talking about disabled people.


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Sand
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25 Apr 2009, 10:10 am

ascan wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Ive come to the sobering conclusion that those who advocate Eugenics, particularly those with the power to direct policy, should be neutralized before they cause undue harm to innocent people. Any one else agree?

No I don't. I think you're oversimplifying a rather complicated issue. Human societies directly or indirectly utilise eugenics in the form of various social norms. For example within certain religions it would be considered inappropriate to marry someone of a different faith. One could argue (possibly, and someone better qualified may comment) that Ashkenazi Jews retain their high average IQ because of that. And how about the taboos regarding inter-racial marriage?

Then, to follow another line of thought, there's the British underclass. Socialist policies encourage them to breed at an astounding rate -- the more brats they produce, the more the state pays them. In fact, as I write this there's a government ad at the top of the screen offering money for just that! On the other hand, the professional classes are discouraged as they face huge financial penalties for reproducing. For example, private schooling (nobody with money and sense would even consider a state school). So, you have government policy selecting for reproduction of dimwits. Note, I'm not saying that all underclass people are dim, just that on average underclass people will be dimmer than those from the professions.

Like it or not for a society to survive, eugenics at some level must be considered. That doesn't necessarily mean stopping people reproducing, but could mean providing incentives.



Yeah. Like all those very bright hardworking guys on Wall Street and in the automobile industry who totally screwed up the economy.



ascan
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25 Apr 2009, 1:44 pm

Sand wrote:
Yeah. Like all those very bright hardworking guys on Wall Street and in the automobile industry who totally screwed up the economy.

I'm glad you agree, at least in principle, that eugenics can be used legitimately, Sand.



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25 Apr 2009, 2:34 pm

ascan wrote:
Sand wrote:
Yeah. Like all those very bright hardworking guys on Wall Street and in the automobile industry who totally screwed up the economy.

I'm glad you agree, at least in principle, that eugenics can be used legitimately, Sand.


Well, is that what you think? That cutting the balls off financiers would cure the monetary problems of the country? It's certainly an original approach. And the beauty part is it's so simple. Once it catches on people will surely think it's a cure-all for all sorts of other problems like epilepsy and cancer and autism and asperger's syndrome. Catchy thing, that idea.