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techstepgenr8tion
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13 May 2009, 10:55 pm

Does anyone have any ideas on how many atheists, proportionate to their numbers in the world, join either military service, law enforcement, fire fighting, rescue, operation, or anything high-risk to one's self in proportion to their theist and deist counterparts?

I ask the question because I honestly don't know the answer. Based on beliefs, are they more/less/as risk averse or prone to heroism as the general public? I'm guessing that a certainty in their being no deity and no human spirit could go a variety of different courses based on their level of altruism and how much they check the value of their own personal existence against that of everyone around them. Still, I'd love to know if anyone has seen any worthwhile studies on this regarding how it statistically works out?



Henriksson
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14 May 2009, 8:33 am

I think I talked to an atheist in military who said that instead of calling upon god to help him, he called the headquarters for more artillery.

Or something along those lines, my memory is kind of blurry. :lol:


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Sand
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14 May 2009, 8:51 am

There was a saying when I was in the army that there are no atheists in foxholes. In other words, if you were an atheist the army did not place you in a dangerous front line position. I assume that's why I never saw combat.



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14 May 2009, 9:04 am

Sand wrote:
There was a saying when I was in the army that there are no atheists in foxholes. In other words, if you were an atheist the army did not place you in a dangerous front line position. I assume that's why I never saw combat.


really?
deliberately?

maybe they dont rely on atheists to charge into death, since an atheist would not believe to come to heaven - so an atheist frontline would simply be ineffective?

"atheist frontline"... :roll: you get what i mean tho :D


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14 May 2009, 9:08 am

There are indeed - in fact there's a veterans group called "Atheists in Foxholes."

Pat Tillman was an Atheist.



Sand
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14 May 2009, 9:18 am

ZEGH8578 wrote:
Sand wrote:
There was a saying when I was in the army that there are no atheists in foxholes. In other words, if you were an atheist the army did not place you in a dangerous front line position. I assume that's why I never saw combat.


really?
deliberately?

maybe they dont rely on atheists to charge into death, since an atheist would not believe to come to heaven - so an atheist frontline would simply be ineffective?

"atheist frontline"... :roll: you get what i mean tho :D


Sorry. It was a joke. I was in WWII and if combat was your destiny that's where you went whether you were a Christian, a Jew or a witch doctor. I joined in 1944 hoping to get to be a combat fighter pilot because I wanted to fly a plane ever since I was 2 years old. Luckily I was disqualified since in my stupid youthful ways it never struck me I would have to murder people from the air. That's what war is all about. The slogan, of course, was real and it signified that once you entered combat and jumped into a foxhole and defecated in your pants you quickly became a Christian convert. I spent my time in army technical training schools and the army of occupation in Germany after they surrendered so I never attained either the Christian epiphany or dirty underwear.



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14 May 2009, 9:21 am

i also bet its cultural. usa has a lot more christianity up in public "god bless america!" etc

some COMEDIAN said "god bless norway!" to tons of laughs. that was the entire joke.
in the military religion was never mentioned, even the base priest was more of a councler/therapist rather than a man-of-god.

Sand wrote:
Sorry. It was a joke. I was in WWII and if combat was your destiny that's where you went whether you were a Christian, a Jew or a witch doctor. I joined in 1944 hoping to get to be a combat fighter pilot because I wanted to fly a plane ever since I was 2 years old. Luckily I was disqualified since in my stupid youthful ways it never struck me I would have to murder people from the air. That's what war is all about. The slogan, of course, was real and it signified that once you entered combat and jumped into a foxhole and defecated in your pants you quickly became a Christian convert. I spent my time in army technical training schools and the army of occupation in Germany after they surrendered so I never attained either the Christian epiphany or dirty underwear.


ahh, so it was more in the sense of "we're all gonna die anyway, no matter if you pray or not" sort of thing?
then, we all know the assbeating finland recieved, no? :D
russia will never look to finland to invade again, unless they feel like throwing away hundreds of thousands of troops for nothing again :D


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Sand
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14 May 2009, 9:29 am

ZEGH8578 wrote:
i also bet its cultural. usa has a lot more christianity up in public "god bless america!" etc

some COMEDIAN said "god bless norway!" to tons of laughs. that was the entire joke.
in the military religion was never mentioned, even the base priest was more of a councler/therapist rather than a man-of-god.

Sand wrote:
Sorry. It was a joke. I was in WWII and if combat was your destiny that's where you went whether you were a Christian, a Jew or a witch doctor. I joined in 1944 hoping to get to be a combat fighter pilot because I wanted to fly a plane ever since I was 2 years old. Luckily I was disqualified since in my stupid youthful ways it never struck me I would have to murder people from the air. That's what war is all about. The slogan, of course, was real and it signified that once you entered combat and jumped into a foxhole and defecated in your pants you quickly became a Christian convert. I spent my time in army technical training schools and the army of occupation in Germany after they surrendered so I never attained either the Christian epiphany or dirty underwear.


ahh, so it was more in the sense of "we're all gonna die anyway, no matter if you pray or not" sort of thing?
then, we all know the assbeating finland recieved, no? :D
russia will never look to finland to invade again, unless they feel like throwing away hundreds of thousands of troops for nothing again :D


I was a New Yorker, born American citizen, in the US Army. The Finns did what they could to remain an independent nation. Considering the odds it seems to me they did an exemplary job.



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14 May 2009, 9:47 am

Sand wrote:
ZEGH8578 wrote:
i also bet its cultural. usa has a lot more christianity up in public "god bless america!" etc

some COMEDIAN said "god bless norway!" to tons of laughs. that was the entire joke.
in the military religion was never mentioned, even the base priest was more of a councler/therapist rather than a man-of-god.

Sand wrote:
Sorry. It was a joke. I was in WWII and if combat was your destiny that's where you went whether you were a Christian, a Jew or a witch doctor. I joined in 1944 hoping to get to be a combat fighter pilot because I wanted to fly a plane ever since I was 2 years old. Luckily I was disqualified since in my stupid youthful ways it never struck me I would have to murder people from the air. That's what war is all about. The slogan, of course, was real and it signified that once you entered combat and jumped into a foxhole and defecated in your pants you quickly became a Christian convert. I spent my time in army technical training schools and the army of occupation in Germany after they surrendered so I never attained either the Christian epiphany or dirty underwear.


ahh, so it was more in the sense of "we're all gonna die anyway, no matter if you pray or not" sort of thing?
then, we all know the assbeating finland recieved, no? :D
russia will never look to finland to invade again, unless they feel like throwing away hundreds of thousands of troops for nothing again :D


I was a New Yorker, born American citizen, in the US Army. The Finns did what they could to remain an independent nation. Considering the odds it seems to me they did an exemplary job.


indeed, i dont think you can find any comparable resistance, considering their relatively low population.
here in norway, people are very proud of the resistance put up against the german invasion, it also ranks high comparing the small country size + the fact that half the army surrendered imediately, but finns "take the cake" completely, by withstanding not one but TWO soviet invasions

i heard they would smear themselves in insulating fat, in order to be able to sit outside in the cold, without the need to light a revealing fire. this way they could snipe the russians at their every attempt to light a fireplace, scaring them into avoiding fires, and many of them to simply freeze to death


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techstepgenr8tion
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14 May 2009, 4:45 pm

Part of the reason I bring this up is - the notion tends to go around that theists just sit on their thumbs, don't do anything to deal with or handle evil because they believe that God will take care of it. If that were the case, if anything, it should be an atheist majority in police work, fire fighting, even military so long it was a military to a government who they could politically agree with.

Really I think its like this - that's largely based on a few different factors but for those who actually want to serve the public, its a sense of personal responsibility and duty through one's own altruism; that sense doesn't lend itself to sitting on the sidelines as much. While I get the impression that psychopathy is nature rather than nurture (why I rule the power and blood-thirsty out of this example) I'm curious also on just how much altruism could be in nature as well, or how much nurture feeds into it. Theists largely just have a different internal sense of things regarding what all this 'stuff' is made of in our world, which generally speaking doesn't lend itself to sitting back and just letting injustice happen either.



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14 May 2009, 5:47 pm

Don't forget to adjust for population size, socio economic group, geographical location...



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15 May 2009, 2:51 pm

My father was an atheist. He was also a highly decorated Navy SEAL who served during the Vietnam War, and paid for his service with his life. 20 years after his service, he contracted cancer from the exposure to Agent Orange. I have about five friends in the US army who are atheists, and my atheist cousin is in the National Guard. I know plenty of other atheists who serve their country and die right alongside their religious compatriots.



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15 May 2009, 3:26 pm

Christians probably often think "If I get killed by terrorists, I'll get to go to heaven for my services to *hic* America!" Atheists know that when they die, it's the end.



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15 May 2009, 3:34 pm

Sand wrote:

Sorry. It was a joke. I was in WWII and if combat was your destiny that's where you went whether you were a Christian, a Jew or a witch doctor. I joined in 1944 hoping to get to be a combat fighter pilot because I wanted to fly a plane ever since I was 2 years old. Luckily I was disqualified since in my stupid youthful ways it never struck me I would have to murder people from the air. That's what war is all about. The slogan, of course, was real and it signified that once you entered combat and jumped into a foxhole and defecated in your pants you quickly became a Christian convert. I spent my time in army technical training schools and the army of occupation in Germany after they surrendered so I never attained either the Christian epiphany or dirty underwear.


Wait a minute--the Finns were on Germany's side. Why would Finnish soldiers be a part of the army occupying Germany?



MattShizzle
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15 May 2009, 3:48 pm

He said earlier he's originally from the US and was living here then.



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15 May 2009, 4:12 pm

pandabear wrote:
Sand wrote:

Sorry. It was a joke. I was in WWII and if combat was your destiny that's where you went whether you were a Christian, a Jew or a witch doctor. I joined in 1944 hoping to get to be a combat fighter pilot because I wanted to fly a plane ever since I was 2 years old. Luckily I was disqualified since in my stupid youthful ways it never struck me I would have to murder people from the air. That's what war is all about. The slogan, of course, was real and it signified that once you entered combat and jumped into a foxhole and defecated in your pants you quickly became a Christian convert. I spent my time in army technical training schools and the army of occupation in Germany after they surrendered so I never attained either the Christian epiphany or dirty underwear.


Wait a minute--the Finns were on Germany's side. Why would Finnish soldiers be a part of the army occupying Germany?


You need to go back and read. Sand is not Finnish. He is American.


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