Palestinian "holocaust"

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It is indeed a Holy War. that is why all of the secular approaches to make peace have failed. the Arabs will not change their
posistion no matter how damaging it is to both parties because of religious reasons not because of logic.

the only way to really solve the problem would be a real war with a clear winner and a clear looser.

I'm rooting for Israel on this one though. they at least have been trying to make peace and getting hurt by it for as long as Israel was re-established as a sovereign nation. everyone has been forcing Israel to make concessions for peace I say it is high time that the Arabs make painful sacrifices as they have killed the peace process every single time.

There was never any country called Palestine. Palestine was not a separate country. It was a region. What was actually historical Palestine not only included all of Israel but also included all of modern day Jordan and Lebanon under a British Mandate from 1920 to 1948(the founding of Israel).

Jews emigrated to Israel not only to flee antisemitism in Europe but also in the arab world as well. People don't seem to be aware that antisemitism wasn't just a European phenomenon.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... ewtoc.html

For all the talk about the Palestinians having their land seized from them and being denied their rights very little is said about the rights of the inhabitants of the Western Sahara when it was seized and forcibly annexed by Morocco during the Green March in 1975.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_March

Antisemitism has storically been an European phenomenon. When Muslims and Jews were chased from Spain in 1494 by the Catholic monarchy, most Jews found haven in the Ottoman Empire. There have never been forms of systematic persecution of the kind of European progroms in the Arab world and the Sefardin population, which is now one of the two components of Israeli, the other being the Askenazi, of East European origis, is constituted by the spanish jews who took refuge in Muslim countries (Morocco) where they could live peacefully. With the foundation of the state of Israel thare has been resentement angainst the Jews in the Arab world and many Sefardin were attracted to Israel. It also must be taken intoaccount that the PIB pro capite is $ 23,000 in Israel and $4.000 in Maroc. Antisemitism has been very strong in France and Poland, more than in Germany where it is was mainly a state enforced policy (culminating in extermination).

History lesson topic

Dear posters: If I am not mistaken, the original argument here was whether or not Palestinian deaths constituted a genocide. Based on the definition of the term, the unfortunate deaths here did not meet the criteria.

Then there was a great deal of anger about whether or not the Jewish people had a right to occupy the land upon which they inhabit now. The country is theirs, and has been legally theirs since 1948.

Next, there were the arguments about Palestinians getting their own piece of the pie. Perhaps this should be mandated, perhaps not, if they are going to use their property to terrorize their rightful neighbours.

Logic and reason hold sway here. Israel has been a nation since 1948. This is all perfectly legal. If the world did not want them to be there, they should have tried harder to veto this at the UN. I for one, am glad they are here, the only democracy in the Middle East. It must be damned near impossible to keep as decent as they are, what with all the wars, terrorists, insurrections, disasters, murders, kidnappings these people have gone through.

If there was only one nation on earth that would accept Aspies as they are, my money is on Israel. Baruch Hashem.

Shalom, Chaverim
Thanks for all the historical information, no matter the poster's affiliation.

Palestinians as victors topic

Now this is an interesting scenario: If a paranoid person had no knowledge or history of the conflict between Jews and Palestinians in Israel, and learned about it entirely through these posts, he/she might conclude that the strife here was a setup by the UN in order to lump all the combatants in one place in order for the Jews to be annihilated. Bullies ganging up on the little guy.Of course, this is what the the surrounding Arab nations tried to do in 1948, 1967 and 1973. In between those times and since, there have been homicide bombings and other insurrections, with a great loss of life on all sides.

This approach has not worked. It just gets the Jewish people angrier. Anger and hate on both sides solves nothing.

There have been peace talks and accords. This is logic and reason, a sensible approach. yet nothing has been changed, because the Muslim/Arab world wants to wipe out the Jewish people entirely in a holy war. This is a call to genocide.

How could you trust people who want you gone? I certainly would not. Without the basis of trust, there is no foundation for peace.

There is another approach that has a kernel of success. It is called economics. If both sides can work out that it is economically more feasible for them to coexist together, as a team, in business, medicine, education, information technology, and the like, then this may be the way to proceed. This has been tried on a small scale in business dealings. If it could be made to help poor Palestinians to increase their economic standing, then they could see that peace is not only psychologically sound but also politically and economically profitable. I believe this has been tried, albeit on a small scale. But if it works in microcosm, it just might work on the larger scale too.

NOTHING SUCCEEDS LIKE SUCCESS. Palestinians can win at this too.

Yizhar Smilansky, someway the father of Israeli literature, was Hebrew-speaking sabra born on Palestinian soil to a pioneering Jewish family, an officer of the IDF in the 1948 war of independence, dispatched to secure an Arab village at that time.
Khirbet Khizeh (paperback $18 ) is the narration of the discharge of that duty by the author, who later was a member of the Knesset, and died 2002. It’s a literarily gripping piece, and I recommend that everybody who participated to this thread read this little book. It’s a kind of homework (pardon me, I don’t have any means of enforcement). Yizhar witnesses the expulsion of Arab villagers and mordantly observes: "We'll house and absorb [Jewish] immigrants ... We'll open a grocery, build a school, maybe even a synagogue ... Who'll even remember that there was once some Hirbet Hizah (the name of the village) here, which we drove out and inherited? We came, we shot, we burned, we detonated. What the hell are we doing here?"

It is your move topic


No Ed, you are naive. The terrorists would love to be given the extra land upon which to wage further terror. Their goal is to drive the Jews into the Mediterranean sea, if they do not blow them to smithereens first.

My idea, which is nothing new, was for all parties to work together economically and financially to better themselves. Perhaps the Palestinians even would eventually buy more land, but by then with their new found prosperity terror might no longer be necessary. Peace can a foundation in wealth. This certainly is a better idea than further terror, which only serves to create more anger, war, and general unhappiness all around.

If I were you, Ed, I would not hold my breath waiting for the type pf peace you advocate. In the meantime, we can all read the book Paolo recommends, by Yizhar Smilansky, for "homework."

Economics have nothing to do with peace in this situation. you even said it yourself they want to push all the Jews into the sea. with or without a good economy thats what they lust after. the only thing development of an economy will do is give them more sophisticated ways of killing Jews.


It's not like this hasn't been tried before. In fact this is the same view held by the idiotic left in Israel now. and back in the 80s. you can listen to a debate between Ehud Olmert and Mier Kahane over this issue on youtube (or google video)
where Ehud Olmert pretty much repeats what you are saying about economics.

Mier Kahane responds with something like this "I can't believe the contempt that the left shows for the arabs, thinking that improving their standard of living with accomplish anything. They also believe the land is theirs they are wrong but they firmly believe that. You can't for one minute believe they are willing to sell their national pride for an indoor toliet or for a chance to make more money, they believe all the land is theirs and they will take it."

look at how well Democracy worked in Palestine. it worked perfectly they overwhelmingly voted in Hamas. there is nothing that says a Democracy or good economics makes a peaceful nation. the government structure and the economy are just two particular bits of infrastructure in a society. The culture and the religion of a people will determine how they use the tools given to them. and it is fundamental to the Palestinians to kill Jews and make Israel vanish. not only in supposed "Palestine" but in other arab nations as well, they all mourn the establishment of Israel on its anniversary its called Al-Naqbah (The Catastrophe)

just look up "Al-Naqbah" on Google for plenty of interesting hits. The biggest mistake being made by the western world and the Israelis is the assumtpion that the Muslim world is just like the western world, and that people think and see the world like they do. and so they treat them like they would treat their neighbors down the street. Nothing could be further form the truth. The culture is entirely alien to the west and they don't think like us or have the same world view. This is why all of the "Peac Plans" have been a total disaster. you are trying to make peace with a culture that will not compromise to them once a territory has been under muslim control even for a second it becomes muslim land and can never be given up, and Holy War must be faught to keep it. There is no such thing as compromise, agreements can be made but only in order to make it easier for them to regorup and re-take the land later down the road. understanding Islam is the key to understanding this conflict.

Hollow and Caustic Focus Situation topic

There has been a lot of dysfunctional explanations here regarding this topic. I can only conclude here that there is no room for peace, as no one here seems to be advocating it.

Anger is not inherently a negative expression of frustration. But if it is used as an end in itself, then it can only result in mass destruction. If this happens, there will be no economics, no peace, no land, only death, annihilation.

If this is what the posters here are advocating, then there is no further discussion. There is no compromise and no solution. And the deaths of innocents on all sides will continue.

I don't believe any of the posters here are advocating, hatred or anger and as of now, I haven't any real anger in these post. I believe that each poster is trying to state thier take on the situation. Being from the area in question I find that I see it very much from an Israeli perspective. However there are usually two stories in every situation and somewhere in the middle is the truth. Where I see it one way and Ed sees it totally opposite, somewhere in between is probably the answer to the problem. Discussion, even a little heated debate is healthy. No one has yet advocated getting your gun and shooting someone because they disagree with the other. Yes there is fighting between the two factions, but here in cyberspace we can agree to disagree and enjoy a lively debate.

GNP per person is $23,400 per person in Israel (official data) $ 600 in Gaza and $ 700 in the whole of the territories (data coming from the CIA). Supplies must transitate at the whim of Israel. Isreel controls water an elecrticiy