Pyramids were grain silos, not tombs, says Carson

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But then, as you say "Say what you will, but - aside from its horrific caste system - Hinduism is very open and very laissez faire."

HORRIFIC CASTE SYSTEM:

The cast system which controls the life of every Indian citizen. If you happen to be of a higher class you can enjoy the benefits of higher education, good food, etc. But a lower class person and their children, and their children's children, will be born into a class that have very few or infrequent amenities. This is what defines India for me (unfortunately).

I don't say many do not enjoy all possible benefits, and for the blessed the "laissez faire" comes easily. But constant warring and killings go on too frequently, not just sexual attacks against women but whole groups are slaughtered at one time.

Ouch.

A nice combination of stereotypes and sweeping generalizations. Also you seem to think that ONLY Indians are Hindus or that all citizens in India are Hindus. Neither is true. So nice try marrying the religion and the current political problems in India.

There is also this little matter about the "reservations systems" that sets aside 80% of all opportunities from education to politics to individuals identified as belonging to "low castes". Maybe you should write to Narendra Modi, the current PM of India, about the plight of the children and individuals belonging to low castes, and their lack of access to amenities and opportunities. It would eye-opening for him, as he himself belongs to a so-called "very low caste", LOL.

This is like an Indian saying that the slavery of pre Civil war, and Jim Crowe segregations of post Civil War are what "defines" America for them.




What was the last whole group that - per you - was completely slaughtered at one time ?

My reference to the caste system was to point out that I disagreed with it finding a place within some of the Hindu scriptures. I don't care how the ancients intended it, it eventually did not work out as intended anyway, and it seems completely incongruent when you consider how much freedom Hinduism confers on followers in other regards.

But you seem to have interpreted my statement as a commentary on the current statuesque which is not what I meant at all.

I think the difference is Indian caste is still practiced in India whereas Jim Crow is long gone...Shouldn't Modi outlaw caste altogether? why are there still Brahmins in India??

Yeah, like racism, segregation etc are outlawed in name, but are still institutionalized within local social structures ?

As for outlawing caste, well, there is no longer a requirement for individuals to identify themselves as belonging to a particular caste. There are, however, reservations per each caste, which every modern, forward thinking citizen opposes, because in their opinion, this "reservation by caste" forces / motivates people to identify themselves as belonging to a certain community, which in turn will perpetuate caste.

But even that will dismantle eventually as arranged marriages are on the decline, and 90% of all marriages happening this day are "mixed" with the two individuals likely to belonging to very different communities - which means that the resulting offspring will not belong to either caste and will, in effect, be "casteless".

I don't know what you mean by "why are there still Brahmins in India ?" Why are there still Irish Americans or German Americans or Italian Americans in the US (despite the fact that their ancestors emigrated over a 100 years ago from Ireland or Germany or Italy or wherever) ? Why do people identify themselves as being of English ancestry in Australia, 150+ years after the fact ? Similarly, "Brahmin" these days is a purely nomenclature thing and if at all used today refers to individuals whose forefathers identified themselves as such and such.

What I find amusing is that people choose to ignore the liberal aspects of Hinduism and have latched on to attack it solely because of the presence of an archaic social structure. Like the rest of the world are paragons of tolerance and virtue and have never discriminated against anyone else... EVER.

I'm not Indian or hindu so perhaps not qualified to discuss - but using common sense -

This ignores the obvious that caste is still relevant at a social level to Indian people "living" in India. Group dynamics in Indian society is still determined caste (in-group and out-group particularly in relation marriage) which is a separate issue to caste quotas in universities which you insinuate that lower castes eagerly maintain their low status to get their kids into a (by western standards) second rate educational institutions



This is probably relevant if you are talking about the 11% who are middle class and university educated...(BTW the figure of 11% is taken rom the Indian government website) the other 89% stick with their own caste



You are mixing two different concepts. nationality/ethnicity is not the same as caste. Caste in India is more similar to class in the UK. The British upper class is equivalent the India's upper caste in social context. You eagerly pointed out Modi is lower caste but the ruling class is still drawn from the upper caste. I once met a Indian woman who declared herself Brahmin caste in university here in Melbourne. Despite being born here in Australia her parents were pressurising her to marry a Brahmin man. What shocked me however was their attitude that if she was unable to marry a Brahmin man then at least find a wealthy/educated white Australian but they would disown her if she every contemplated marrying a lower caste Indian man or an uneducated Aussie. Sounds like she is carrying a whole lot of mental baggage...



I know very little about Hinduism so will not comment. The irony of contrasting hinduism from the rest of the world (in order to defend it) draws attention to the fact the people of India are equally held down by the unseen forces of superstition and tradition. Since India has produced some great world class scientists, philosophers and social leaders I imagine completely removing hindu/caste baggage would make India a much more progressive place.

And you know this how ? As someone who spent the greater part of my life there, and who is still closely in touch with the realities of life there, I would politely but firmly disagree with this.



Not "insinuations" but facts. And something of great debate, as the issue of caste-based reservations ending up "perpetuating the caste system" is of national relevance actually. And did you just say that Indian institutions are second rate ? WOW !





Again, you know this how ?



Yet again, you know this how ? Who are these so-called "ruling class" ? Can you please show me a break down of all the politicians and political parties in India and their alleged caste affiliations ? We can make this scientific inquiry as opposed to idle speculation.



And you think this one woman is representative of all Indians all over the world ? Ok, if you say so. Except that I know - in real life - of two "Brahmin" girls, one of whom married an older white male with kids only 5 years younger than herself. The other lives in NZ and is dating a Maori guy, is taking Maori language classes and is planning her wedding next year. Yeah, sounds like they are carrying a lot of mental bagage. Sure !



So we will leave it at that. Except that your biases came shining through quite well. I will let the Indians know that they are running second rate educational institutions and are still a casteist flock of sheep carrying mental baggages. Thank you !

Hi Hismom,

Yes I realise that. My knowledge of caste/society is based on newsmedia so yes your knowledge would be superior to mine.

The 11% intercaste marriage figure is from the Indian government website published in 2012
However a even more recent survey by the India Human Development Survey (IHDS), conducted by the National Council for Applied Economic Research (NCAER) and the University of Maryland suggests it's much lower around 5%. Honestly that doesn't reflect very well...even you must admit that

In a previous life I was policy analyst and worked on benchmarking global universities for an unamed higher education institution here...the data that was collected clearly illustrated Indian universities were "2nd rate" to western universities on all relevant academic, research, student outcome and other indicators. This is not being rude it's a fact.

I once met the Vice Chancellor of IIT Bombay (the highest globally ranked Indian institute of higher learning) at an international conference back in the late 1990s. During an informal conversation I mentioned the lowest ranked Australian university is ranked higher than IIT Bombay. He confided that he would prefer his son get into an Australian or American university than study in India. That's not (in my view) a great endorsment for Indian education.

Where are the links to these supposed studies / surveys ? What was the sample size and how were samples derived ? What socio-economic backgrounds, educational backgrounds, professions, urban vs rural living, etc were concerned ?



Unnamed educational institute, eh ? I don't take anonymous studies seriously. If published, where and when was it published ? Was it peer-reviewed ? And, any reputed institution should make the details public. Just because a "study" is conducted does not mean that it is unbiased or had robust design and methodology.



How do you like it if the Vice-Chancellor of an American University told you that the best Australian Universities lagged behind the WORST American Universities ?

And if that dude did make that claim, then shame on him. He must have been the bigger moron, because obviously the fact his alums went on to hold responsible positions in well-known technology companies or worked at NASA or even launched a satellite to Mars' orbit from home obviously didn't count with him. Maybe just a case of sour grapes that his son wouldn't / couldn't / didn't make it.

Results speak greater than "endorsements". I can't think of any Australian who currently holds very senior and publicly visible positions at Google, Apple, Microsoft, or works at NASA or heads research studies at Stanford, Duke, or John Hopkins, or edits reputable medical journals. Do you know of any Australian who teaches advanced management courses at Wharton or Kellog or Haas or Harvard ? But there are some very public Indian (not Indian-American, but INDIAN) students from alleged "second rate Indian Universities" in these positions. And when was the last time Australia launched a satellite into space ?

Finally, you are entitled to your opinion about the ratings of foreign Universities. But you may want to understand that even if an American thinks very poorly of an Australian University, that view may not be shared by Australians who may still compete to get into their local "second rate" (by American standards) Universities.

Same difference.

http://www.thehindu.com/data/just-5-per ... 591502.ece


All valid points. It was a confidential policy document (not for publication) based on the Times Higher education Index and Shanghai Jiao Tong Index global university rankings systems. All ratings systems for higher education institutions have some element of bias in them such as with student evaluations which are based on subjective opinion. The Shanghai index is the most widely used but is heavily skewed toward Nobel prizes while the Times is skewed by international student enrolment.


My alma mater Melbourne University is ranked in the top 30 universities in the world so it's not an issue that concerns me very much....


Possibly? don't really know his motivation. He was relatively wealthy (for an Indian) so had the luxury to pay international scholarship fees


I think you missed one of my earlier posts where I said India has produced some of the world's best mathematicians, scientists and philosophers. I did not in any way cast aspersions on the people. The institutions of higher learning are a separate matter. I can see you are trying to draw attention to lack of Aussies in top corporations but I'm afraid it doesn't phase me as I have little admiration or concern for CEOs, lawyers or people who teach management.


Met many Americans in conferences and they all seem to be impressed by our universities. Probably also depends on the discipline you are in I guess. But you are right, US universities do dominate in quality!

I remember seeing the clip and thought to myself, what sort of person would come up with that most silly & preposterous idea? Only someone whom is not well versed in Egyptology.

Enrollment, eh ? Or Nobel Prize winning alumni ? I can even understand the latter, but not the former, especially as consideration of the first factor would skew the ratings in favour of Universities in the "first world".

Secondly, since it's inception over a century ago, the Nobel Prize has been awarded to less than 900 individuals. That is a small fraction of the total human population, and the student population. Secondly, the Prize is awarded by nomination - so there is an element of bias that could creep in, as with all other things. Gandhi never won a Nobel Prize for Peace, and he was the father of the ahimsa movement to win independence ! !!




Faulty logic. Poor quality of education cannot produce great minds that further produce great works. Academic rigour plays a great role in shaping and honing research and study skills - no Indian is likely to be SO brilliant that they overcome allegedly poor education at supposedly mediocre institutions to come out on top. It doesn't work that way. Secondly, I doubt that ANY employer or Institute or agency in the so-called "first world" will willingly accept products of poor educational institutions into their positions or nominate these individuals to head their teaching or research faculties. Does not happen.



Oh, I have no doubt that Australian Universities have mettle. I wouldn't deny it for a second. I do question, however, why their alumni are not publicly visible leaders, if they were such great movers and shakers ? For all their stellar mettle, Australia has only produced about 15 Nobel Prize winners and hardly any publicly visible Australian leader or scientist or researcher ? Why ? You may not care for such "results", but where an alumnus is likely to end up is a far better indicator of the alma mater's quality than "endorsements" by unnamed folks at conferences or the biased results of faultily designed studies anywhere.

BTW, you talk so much about alleged caste issues in India. Are Australians so open and accepting of people of other races ? Don't give me that spiel on how race is a biological vs a social concept, and how differences would always exist everywhere. But I just don't get the impression that Australians overflow with the milk of human kindness, exactly, and some (NOT ALL but some) white Australians put the Klan to shame. My source : a large extended family in Australia and NZ. One of my cousins ran off with a white male and today - 7 years later - is still not accepted by her husband's family. But her husband is now more than welcome around ours ! Another one was briefly "seeing" a white male, and was dumped in a great big hurry when his family complained that he was going around with a "curry woman". And you tell me that Indians are the biased ones who wouldn't tolerate non-Brahmin sons-in-law ! !! LOL.

These are global ratings so the criteria is one that is accepted at a global level (even by India). On the question of enrollment, international student enrollment is a quality indicator on the basis that if a student is willing to pay international fees to attend a foreign university then it's a obvious indicator of the quality/demand of that institution. I am not aware of foreigners rushing to pay out of their own pocket to study at an Indian university


I think you'll find all of India's modern thinkers studied in western universities and so are beholden to western European education/thinking. Even Mahatma Gandhi studied law in London. The great mathematicians/physicists (whom I have great respect) are also products of western universities and teachings of western scientists/mathematicians and scholars. The few who did study in India were studying under British Indian rule when Indian universities were actually quite good, however the entire academic staff were British. I'm afraid Indian universities run by Indian staff have not, however, produced anyone of relatively great global standing.


No arguments there


Yes there are an element of nasty individuals in every society. Australia is relatively egalitarian society (we have an ethos of a fair go for all). However India is also ridden with fairly xenophobic political parties and groups. I think this might open your eyes to the situation in India
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... e-you.html

He probably can't find Egypt on a map.

But then Donald Trump probably can't find any place out side of Manhatten on a map.

And Hillary probably wasnt able to find Manhatten itself on a map until she ran for the U.S. Senate to represent the place!

Last edited by naturalplastic on 02 Dec 2015, 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

And yet, that's about the only possible way for conservative evangelical
Christians to defend the doctrine of plenary verbal inspiration--what I call
the 3-D theory, or direct divine dictation--against any suggestion
that the stories around Joseph in Egypt were fictions.

I'm going to be humorous here if I can, if ever someone asks me what the purpose of Stonehenge's creation is? I'll simply say it was for people to not forget to laundry before the Sabbath.

Since when did a tabloid become a reputed research institute ?!

And, in any case, I strongly suggest that you focus on fixing your own roof first, and stop trying to tell me about the "situation" in India.

http://alltogethernow.org.au/racism/

IF Australia is egalitarian, then denial is a river that floods regularly in Melbourne.

"These guys are worried that you'll steal something ! !"

http://www.themarysue.com/australian-ap ... re-racism/

I am also sure that you have heard of fairly regular and racially motivated attacks on brown students in Melbourne ? But Australia is still so "egalitarian" ? .

http://www.news.com.au/finance/work/car ... 84f1746b75

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/13/apple-ap ... m-row.html

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/face-of-recla ... l77iw.html

And since you insinuate that current India-educated Indians are somehow beholden to "Western" Universities, please tell me why alums from a "high quality Australian University" are rarely (if ever) at the helm of affairs in medicine, law, education, and research in America or the UK or in other parts of the first world ? And if Australia has only produced 15 Nobel Prize winners since the inception of the award, then that is not a very convincing endorsement of the "quality" of "first rate Australian Universities" (unless the problem is with the (lack of) lobbying prowess of Australian Universities to convince the committee to nominate more of their alums for the Prize).