Leaving Neverland - what do you think?

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That's pretty likely. It's super common for child abuse victims to feel guilt/shame about what they've experienced and not come to terms with it until much later. One of the victims' civil complaints (I think Safechuck's civil complaint) explained how MJ told him that the sexual activities were "his idea", and you can imagine how that screws up with a child's mind. I truly believe MJ convinced himself and his victims that what they were doing was "out of love" and the child was choosing to take part in such activities, so it was their fault.

Sexual abuse doesn't always result in bruises and violence. Sometimes, the child may willingly take part in it (or, in other words, not actively fight against it) and actually feel some pleasure from it, but it's still not their fault, because they are children who are unable to see they are being manipulated. The adult perpetrator is choosing to groom/manipulate a child to take part in sexual activities, and placing the blame on them. What's worse is that society, who is supposed to protect the victims, will blame the children because they still received sexual gratification from it and didn't try to fight off the adult.

Yes, and I think this is particularly true of male victims because of how their bodies visibly respond to stimulation, and the abuser can use that against them by telling them they obviously wanted the abuse because their body reacted to it, when it's just a physiological response to being stimulated that the child can't control.

I don't think Wade was being dishonest in the documentary, I really think he is wrestling with a lot of shame and guilt and that's extra sad to me because the person who is responsible for it and should be the one feeling guilty and responsible escaped that shame and responsibility in death.

No, he blatantly lied about several things. My guess is that yes; the MeToo was the right moment for his lies to sway the general public that does not care about research and that will believe a 4-hour "documentary" meant to play on emotions. It's also a good route if you already went to court with this case and it was thrown out, but is now in appeal. If any of the allegations are true, this documentary is a total disservice to the credibility of the two men.

Why do you feel he lied?

I think that's definitely true but I think a more emotionally mature parent would have used other methods.

Like I said about the molestation accusations, I think it's tricky because I think he was quite young himself mentally.

I mean if you want to not draw attention to somebody even I (as an aspie and not the best judge of human nature) know that putting them in masks all the time is a bad idea. Like something a little kid would come up with not an adult.

...For a while, I tended to think that MJ was innocent of major sex offense - I guess - though that's maybe not a great way of putting it.putting it.
I thought that maybe he did really have sleepovers and stuff on a " big kid " level, and maybe he got in a cheap feel or two. But. I'm more likely later on to think that he really did do it - " Go sell the way ", if you will, though perhaps that"s a bad choice of phrase. But, some people here argue that he didn't, and that the accusers were lying - or deluded, I suppose .
There have been arguments that MK was gay (or no) and. obviously, kept that out of view. especially considering the great dislike of other black gays among some blacks in America ( Although I don't know if that's all the much more than dislike of gays by other races ?

It's very simple to me, do a lie detector test - then I believe you. Talk, lie, read about how to look sad and shameful are something you can learn. The can act just like usual actors to gain what they want especially if the molester is dead.

Lie detector test now!

Lie detectors are hilariously unreliable.

...A tabloidy book I read some years ago claimed to have contacted some of-age men who said that they had had relationships/relations with MJ - but had $igned confidentially agreement$.

Facts. Despite actual lies, the documentary relied heavily on the lie of omission. While it tried to make you believe Michael Jackson tried to isolate those boys and did not want them to have relationships with girls, Michael Jackson actually introduced Wade Robson to his niece, and those two dated for 7 years from around age 11. They broke up because Robson cheated multiple times. I think that if you're trying to make a reliable documentary, then that is the kind of detail that deserves to be mentioned.

Good arguments being made on both sides in this thread.

I dunno. Havent seen this new movie.

For me it just goes back to the same old dichotomy:

Either MJ was just innocently weird, and like to have innocent pajama parties with kids, and his bad judgment about the optics of doing that set himself up to look suspicious. Thus setting himself up for blackmail, and lawsuits.

Or...he really was guilty.

Its a sad story either way.

Lotsa smoke, but no fire. Or some fire underneath the smoke. Could be either way. Maybe we will never know.

Interesting sidebar though: Rosie ODonnell saw the movie, and said she got triggered about being sexually abused in her own family. So maybe something about the guys testimony was authentic enough to trigger her.

If well-researched and well-acted, any story can become relatable. As a side note, some of Safechuck's story seems lifted from the fabricated book Michael Jackson was My Lover: The Secret Diary of Jordie Chandler. So for me, their stories are very shaky. Though despite all of it, there can still be a bit of truth to their stories, but the web of lies and monetary motives are definitely there.

No it's not

There's a reason the polygraph is not admissible in court and that reason is that it's unreliable.

I understand what you saying, but it says a lot about a person if he refuse to do a lie detectortest as well. To me it's a dead give away right there that you are not truthful and afraid to get caught.

Off topic but I'd always refuse to do a lie detector because they rely on body language and I'm autistic.

However, these guys aren't autistic so they ought to show the same body language reactions to lying and truth telling as any other NT. A bit fishy to refuse one in that case.