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magz
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02 Apr 2020, 3:23 am

Teach51 wrote:
Darmok wrote:
^ I also don't quite get the bit about hospitals being "overwhelmed." For example, Massachusetts has a population of 6.9 million. As of today there have been 682 hospitalizations for C19: https://www.mass.gov/doc/covid-19-cases ... 0/download

And yet there are more than 15,000 hospital beds in Massachusetts according to this chart: https://www.ahd.com/state_statistics.html

Now I can certainly understand if someone is making a projection: cases are expected to increase by X within 2 months and that will overwhelm the system. But the media message seems to be that the hospitals are overwhelmed *now*. Have 682 cases (some of which have already been discharged) already overwhelmed a system with more than 15,000 beds? (And note that Massachusetts has rather more cases per capita than many other states.)

It's not a matter of hospital beds but available respirators and trained staff. In Italy the tragedy is that they are having to let people die because they cannot respirate them. The entire world is desperate for respirators. They cannot put Corona patients in regular departments because they need to be isolated.This is why they are building massive field hospitals world-wide to isolate the Corona patients. People continue to have strokes and Cardiac Arrests, Appendicitis. The regular patients cannot be mixed with Corona patients obviously.

Oh, yes, our "wonderful" government brag about hospital beds available but does not say a word about staff shortages.
Well, we can't really count on them, but at least we have our culture of solidarity in crisis. Most people really do their best not to make things worse.


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ouinon2
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02 Apr 2020, 3:25 am

Teach51 wrote:
ouinon2 wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
Corona has no vaccine, and is a new unknown virus, therefore cannot be compared to flu. It also can cause severe symptoms in the young and healthy who require lengthy hospitalisation also. Corona causes serious fibrosis of the lungs unlike flu requiring the young and healthy to require artificial respirators. My doctor friends find Corona terrifying to treat and unpredictable. People are absolutely justified to be concerned. In my country healthy, young people without pre- existing conditions are dying, a minority yes but even so. Not like flu at all.

Causes of Pulmonary Fibrosis include pneumonia, which is often caused by influenza/flu.

However one of the biggest causes of Pulmonary Fibrosis is air pollution.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20353690

Wuhan and the Lombardy region of Italy are amongst the most air polluted areas on earth.

PS. Young people die unexpectedly of flu too, a minority yes but it happens.
In Italy they have an excellent health system, the virus is the problem not pollution. Japan and South Korea have massive pollution and they are faring better than Italy.

This is quite simply not true! Please check and correct. Have a look at this map for the real data on air pollution in those and other places.

https://energydesk.carto.com/builder/7c ... e%7D%7D%7D



Last edited by ouinon2 on 02 Apr 2020, 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Pepe
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02 Apr 2020, 3:26 am

Teach51 wrote:
It also can cause severe symptoms in the young and healthy who require lengthy hospitalisation also. Corona causes serious fibrosis of the lungs unlike flu requiring the young and healthy to require artificial respirators. My doctor friends find Corona terrifying to treat and unpredictable. People are absolutely justified to be concerned. In my country healthy, young people without pre- existing conditions are dying, a minority yes but even so. Not like flu at all.


Tell that to the young people that are laughing about it and who flout social distancing, while mostly older people are keeling over.
What is wrong with humanity?
A horrible species.



Teach51
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02 Apr 2020, 3:28 am

magz wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
Darmok wrote:
^ I also don't quite get the bit about hospitals being "overwhelmed." For example, Massachusetts has a population of 6.9 million. As of today there have been 682 hospitalizations for C19: https://www.mass.gov/doc/covid-19-cases ... 0/download

And yet there are more than 15,000 hospital beds in Massachusetts according to this chart: https://www.ahd.com/state_statistics.html

Now I can certainly understand if someone is making a projection: cases are expected to increase by X within 2 months and that will overwhelm the system. But the media message seems to be that the hospitals are overwhelmed *now*. Have 682 cases (some of which have already been discharged) already overwhelmed a system with more than 15,000 beds? (And note that Massachusetts has rather more cases per capita than many other states.)

It's not a matter of hospital beds but available respirators and trained staff. In Italy the tragedy is that they are having to let people die because they cannot respirate them. The entire world is desperate for respirators. They cannot put Corona patients in regular departments because they need to be isolated.This is why they are building massive field hospitals world-wide to isolate the Corona patients. People continue to have strokes and Cardiac Arrests, Appendicitis. The regular patients cannot be mixed with Corona patients obviously.

Oh, yes, our "wonderful" government brag about hospital beds available but does not say a word about staff shortages.
Well, we can't really count on them, but at least we have our culture of solidarity in crisis. Most people really do their best not to make things worse.



Yes mutual responsibility and consideration of others together with self- discipline is crucial.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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02 Apr 2020, 3:30 am

https://www.thenational.ae/world/mena/p ... -1.1000572



Teach51
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02 Apr 2020, 3:31 am

Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
It also can cause severe symptoms in the young and healthy who require lengthy hospitalisation also. Corona causes serious fibrosis of the lungs unlike flu requiring the young and healthy to require artificial respirators. My doctor friends find Corona terrifying to treat and unpredictable. People are absolutely justified to be concerned. In my country healthy, young people without pre- existing conditions are dying, a minority yes but even so. Not like flu at all.


Tell that to the young people that are laughing about it and who flout social distancing, while mostly older people are keeling over.
What is wrong with humanity?
A horrible species.



Not all Pepe, not all, but many unfortunately.


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magz
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02 Apr 2020, 3:31 am

Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
It also can cause severe symptoms in the young and healthy who require lengthy hospitalisation also. Corona causes serious fibrosis of the lungs unlike flu requiring the young and healthy to require artificial respirators. My doctor friends find Corona terrifying to treat and unpredictable. People are absolutely justified to be concerned. In my country healthy, young people without pre- existing conditions are dying, a minority yes but even so. Not like flu at all.

Tell that to the young people that are laughing about it and who flout social distancing, while mostly older people are keeling over.
What is wrong with humanity?
A horrible species.

Replace humans with skunks and we'll all be better off :mrgreen:


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ouinon2
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02 Apr 2020, 3:41 am

[quote="Eikonabridge"] ... not true ... [ it is more than previous years ] ... [/quote="Eikonabridge"] ( I don't know why this won't "quote" :? )

There is some above average "excess mortality" but if you look at several earlier years on these graphs you'll see that it is not that unusual and that Italy has frequently experienced higher death rates than normal for a European country. https://www.euromomo.eu/ posssibly because of its far higher levels of air pollution and numbers of cases of antibiotic resistant illnesses ( which might not be unrelated ).

And please bear in mind that the Italian National Institute of Health said a few days ago that "Only 12% of the death certificates ( from Italy ) show direct causality from coronavirus", ( which would mean that "only" 1,572 have actually been "killed" by this coronavirus in Italy to date, a lot fewer than the 13,155 listed officially because of Italian death certificate practices ). Is that an accurate or helpful kind of data in your opinion ?

In fact they believe that perhaps as many as 99% who died in this period "with"/positive for coronavirus didn't actually die "of" coronavirus but of their comorbidities/existing underlying illnesses anymore than you'd say that they died of colds ... and the excess mortalities are horribly likely to have been caused by the ( effects of the ) panic about this virus.



Last edited by ouinon2 on 02 Apr 2020, 3:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

Pepe
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02 Apr 2020, 3:43 am

Darmok wrote:
But the media message seems to be that the hospitals are overwhelmed *now*. Have 682 cases (some of which have already been discharged) already overwhelmed a system with more than 15,000 beds? (And note that Massachusetts has rather more cases per capita than many other states.)


I see the problem.
You are actually trying to believe what the media says.
Silly boy. :mrgreen:



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02 Apr 2020, 3:48 am

magz wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
It also can cause severe symptoms in the young and healthy who require lengthy hospitalisation also. Corona causes serious fibrosis of the lungs unlike flu requiring the young and healthy to require artificial respirators. My doctor friends find Corona terrifying to treat and unpredictable. People are absolutely justified to be concerned. In my country healthy, young people without pre- existing conditions are dying, a minority yes but even so. Not like flu at all.

Tell that to the young people that are laughing about it and who flout social distancing, while mostly older people are keeling over.
What is wrong with humanity?
A horrible species.

Replace humans with skunks and we'll all be better off :mrgreen:


Can't agree with that.
I am an evolutionary perversity.
Too intelligent and too little irrational emotionalism for this life system. <sigh>

I've got to go!
This time of day is devoted to praying for a planet-killing meteor strike. :mrgreen:



EzraS
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02 Apr 2020, 3:52 am

sly279 wrote:
Darmok wrote:
^ I also don't quite get the bit about hospitals being "overwhelmed." For example, Massachusetts has a population of 6.9 million. As of today there have been 682 hospitalizations for C19: https://www.mass.gov/doc/covid-19-cases ... 0/download

And yet there are more than 15,000 hospital beds in Massachusetts according to this chart: https://www.ahd.com/state_statistics.html

Now I can certainly understand if someone is making a projection: cases are expected to increase by X within 2 months and that will overwhelm the system. But the media message seems to be that the hospitals are overwhelmed *now*. Have 682 cases (some of which have already been discharged) already overwhelmed a system with more than 15,000 beds? (And note that Massachusetts has rather more cases per capita than many other states.)


Guess you think all those beds are sitting empty?
My state has a 86% capacity use. Means if we have 100 beds 68 are used already and if we now have 50 people who needs beds we don’t have enough.


A lot of beds that would normally be occupied for elective procedures are empty.

The big medical facility I go to, which is usually busy, is practically empty. When I was there recently the staff were chatting and twiddling their thumbs because there's hardly anyone there for treatment. I was in and out in about 1/10th the time it usually takes.

I would have been there twice this month for routine stuff, but that's all been postponed.



Pepe
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02 Apr 2020, 3:56 am

Teach51 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
It also can cause severe symptoms in the young and healthy who require lengthy hospitalisation also. Corona causes serious fibrosis of the lungs unlike flu requiring the young and healthy to require artificial respirators. My doctor friends find Corona terrifying to treat and unpredictable. People are absolutely justified to be concerned. In my country healthy, young people without pre- existing conditions are dying, a minority yes but even so. Not like flu at all.


Tell that to the young people that are laughing about it and who flout social distancing, while mostly older people are keeling over.
What is wrong with humanity?
A horrible species.



Not all Pepe, not all, but many unfortunately.


I wasn't going to shamelessly say this,
But now that you supplied an incentive. :wink:

<clear throat>
Not all humans are the dregs of, errr, humanity,
Just the neurotypical component. :mrgreen:

<startled>
What was that!?
I thought I heard a high pitched squealing NT voice in the background! 8O :mrgreen:



Teach51
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02 Apr 2020, 4:00 am

EzraS wrote:
sly279 wrote:
Darmok wrote:
^ I also don't quite get the bit about hospitals being "overwhelmed." For example, Massachusetts has a population of 6.9 million. As of today there have been 682 hospitalizations for C19: https://www.mass.gov/doc/covid-19-cases ... 0/download

And yet there are more than 15,000 hospital beds in Massachusetts according to this chart: https://www.ahd.com/state_statistics.html

Now I can certainly understand if someone is making a projection: cases are expected to increase by X within 2 months and that will overwhelm the system. But the media message seems to be that the hospitals are overwhelmed *now*. Have 682 cases (some of which have already been discharged) already overwhelmed a system with more than 15,000 beds? (And note that Massachusetts has rather more cases per capita than many other states.)


Guess you think all those beds are sitting empty?
My state has a 86% capacity use. Means if we have 100 beds 68 are used already and if we now have 50 people who needs beds we don’t have enough.


A lot of beds that would normally be occupied for elective procedures are empty.

The big medical facility I go to, which is usually busy, is practically empty. When I was there recently the staff were chatting and twiddling their thumbs because there's hardly anyone there for treatment. I was in and out in about 1/10th the time it usually takes.

I would have been there twice this month for routine stuff, but that's all been postponed.


Yes. My son had elective surgery today because he doesn't need to take time off work and there is no work allowed in his profession. He never listens to me and I was very much against him going to hospital. I cannot visit him and it is really a horrible, helpless feeling to not be there for him and be confined to my house.


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ouinon2
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02 Apr 2020, 4:05 am

Teach51 wrote:
Yes mutual responsibility and consideration of others together with self- discipline is crucial.

Like not posting totally inaccurate/incorrect information, so grossly wrong that cannot even be put down to your having honestly misunderstood something . :(

You said that pollution in Japan and South Korea have massive pollution and are faring far better than Italy" but this map shows very clearly that this is not in fact true.

https://energydesk.carto.com/builder/7c ... e%7D%7D%7D

Northern Italy, California and North Eastern China have the worst air pollution in the world, along with odd other individual cities. Japan has one of the lowest levels of air pollution in the world.



Last edited by ouinon2 on 02 Apr 2020, 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

Teach51
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02 Apr 2020, 4:07 am

Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
It also can cause severe symptoms in the young and healthy who require lengthy hospitalisation also. Corona causes serious fibrosis of the lungs unlike flu requiring the young and healthy to require artificial respirators. My doctor friends find Corona terrifying to treat and unpredictable. People are absolutely justified to be concerned. In my country healthy, young people without pre- existing conditions are dying, a minority yes but even so. Not like flu at all.


Tell that to the young people that are laughing about it and who flout social distancing, while mostly older people are keeling over.
What is wrong with humanity?
A horrible species.



Not all Pepe, not all, but many unfortunately.


I wasn't going to shamelessly say this,
But now that you supplied an incentive. :wink:

<clear throat>
Not all humans are the dregs of, errr, humanity,
Just the neurotypical component. :mrgreen:

<startled>
What was that!?
I thought I heard a high pitched squealing NT voice in the background! 8O :mrgreen:



High pitched squealing NT indeed lol. FYI my aspie lover is begging me to let him visit. Not only is he in my bad books anyway, but here you have a youngish [ b] aspie [b] being selfish and irresponsible......you may put your words in your best Sunday hat and eat them please with the garnish of your choice :lol:


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Pepe
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02 Apr 2020, 4:22 am

Teach51 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
Pepe wrote:
Teach51 wrote:
It also can cause severe symptoms in the young and healthy who require lengthy hospitalisation also. Corona causes serious fibrosis of the lungs unlike flu requiring the young and healthy to require artificial respirators. My doctor friends find Corona terrifying to treat and unpredictable. People are absolutely justified to be concerned. In my country healthy, young people without pre- existing conditions are dying, a minority yes but even so. Not like flu at all.


Tell that to the young people that are laughing about it and who flout social distancing, while mostly older people are keeling over.
What is wrong with humanity?
A horrible species.



Not all Pepe, not all, but many unfortunately.


I wasn't going to shamelessly say this,
But now that you supplied an incentive. :wink:

<clear throat>
Not all humans are the dregs of, errr, humanity,
Just the neurotypical component. :mrgreen:

<startled>
What was that!?
I thought I heard a high pitched squealing NT voice in the background! 8O :mrgreen:



High pitched squealing NT indeed lol. FYI my aspie lover is begging me to let him visit. Not only is he in my bad books anyway, but here you have a youngish[ b]aspie[b]being selfish and irresponsible......you may put your words in your best Sunday hat and eat them please with the garnish of your choice :lol:


:mrgreen:

Judging by your red hair, I gather you are irresistible. <swoon>
How could a red-blooded aspie resist? :wink:
I'll give him a pass, this time.
But tell him not make it a habit, though. :wink:

Hang on.
Here's a thought!
Take him to the vet!
That will quiet him down.
No more pathetic squealing.
Problem solved. :mrgreen: