Police shooting in Wisconsin,protests erupt

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TheRobotLives
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27 Aug 2020, 6:26 am

Brictoria wrote:
Why he didn't stop whatever he was doing and follow the directions of the police, I have no idea...

It's likely very common for people in domestic disputes to be mentally deranged.

Police officers should know this, be ready for this, and know how to handle deranged people.


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27 Aug 2020, 7:41 am

I think it generally stems from insufficient training in dealing with people in mentally deranged states - intoxicated, mentally ill, extremely upset, etc. - in efficient but non-threatening manner.


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27 Aug 2020, 8:19 am

So I don't want to watch the video. From the description it sounds like the cops were following closely and shot him at close range. Now it's routine for American cops to blow people away when they reach for things, but it shouldn't have got to that stage. Just grab the guy ffs before he gets there!



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27 Aug 2020, 8:32 am

Teen arrested in Kenosha shooting promoted 'Blue Lives Matter,' posed with firearms online

Quote:
The videos that spread rapidly across social media Tuesday evening all showed a similar figure: a white man of medium build, a backward tan cap, an olive green T-shirt, dark pants, blue gloves, a rifle and a side bag.

"I'm Kyle, by the way," the man says in one video.

That man now appears to be Kyle Rittenhouse, according to numerous videos from Tuesday night posted online and a Facebook account with pictures that match the man in the video. On Wednesday, Rittenhouse, 17, of Antioch, Illinois, was arrested and faces a warrant alleging first-degree intentional homicide in connection with the shooting deaths of two people during protests over the shooting by police of Jacob Blake, a Black man, in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

The videos, recorded Tuesday night by journalists and people on the streets of Kenosha, appeared to show Rittenhouse before the shootings in which he was arrested. Other videos appeared to have captured at least some of the violence he is accused of.

The videos are an incomplete account of the incident, but they do offer some snapshots of the events as they unfolded. In one video, the man runs from a group of people while talking on a cellphone. "I just killed somebody," he seems to say. In another, more graphic, video, the man runs down a street while being chased. He falls and begins to shoot, and one person collapses nearby.

Two people died and one person was injured in the shootings during Tuesday night's protests in Kenosha, which formed after police shot Blake. Like many protesters in recent months, people who had turned out to demand police reform were met by armed pro-police counteractivists, many of whom have said they sought to stop the destruction of property.

Many of those scenes have turned violent, as Tuesday night in Kenosha did.

At least four videos of the man who appears to be Rittenhouse had been uploaded to the internet as of Wednesday afternoon. In one, he is interviewed by a journalist for the conservative news website The Daily Caller, in which he spoke about why he was on the street.

"People are getting injured, and our job is to protect this business, and part of my job is to also help people," he said. "If there's somebody hurt, I'm running into harm's way. That's why I have my rifle, because I have to protect myself, obviously, but I also have my med kit."

It was not clear whether Rittenhouse had any connection to The Kenosha Guard, a self-identified local militia that had set up an event on Facebook calling for people to take weapons into the streets. According to the group's Facebook page, the militia asked: "Any patriots willing to take up arms and defend [our] City tonight from the evil thugs? No doubt they are currently planning on the next part of the City to burn tonight!"

Numerous videos from the streets of Kenosha on Tuesday evening showed groups of armed white men in military-style gear standing outside businesses in the city, and they recorded confrontations between militia members and protesters.

The Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab, which tracks online extremism, issued a report Wednesday detailing the calls for armed people to go to Kenosha.

"The seeds of potential violence were planted over the course of the day leading up it," through posts in Facebook groups and on Reddit boards, which "encouraged militiamen and other armed individuals to head to Kenosha, ostensibly to protect local businesses from protesters," the report said.

Rittenhouse's online footprint shows strong support for law enforcement. A Facebook page in his name with pictures that match the person who identified himself as Kyle included a variety of pro-police content that has become common in conservative circles, including support for "Blue Lives Matter." Rittenhouse posted numerous photos of himself carrying long guns, along with several photos of the Blue Lives Matter signature flag, and he circled his profile photo with pro-police borders.

Rittenhouse also appeared to have participated in a youth police training program. A photo of a youth who appears to be Rittenhouse in a uniform was posted in 2017 on the Public Safety Cadets page of the Lindenhurst, Grayslake, Hainesville Police Department, with the caption, "Oh hey Kyle!"

The police department had removed or made private the Facebook page where the post had appeared Wednesday, along with its public webpage, and it did not respond to a request for comment. The original post was viewed through Google's web cache.

Rittenhouse also seems to have posted videos to several TikTok accounts. One account, with a bio that read "Trump 2020, and BLUE LIVES MATTER," featured several videos of Rittenhouse shooting guns. A video posted from a second associated account was taken at a Trump rally in Des Moines, Iowa, on Jan. 30. As BuzzFeed News first reported, news video of the event appears to show Rittenhouse seated near the front


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27 Aug 2020, 8:48 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Teen arrested in Kenosha shooting promoted 'Blue Lives Matter,' posed with firearms online
Quote:
The videos that spread rapidly across social media Tuesday evening all showed a similar figure: a white man of medium build, a backward tan cap, an olive green T-shirt, dark pants, blue gloves, a rifle and a side bag.

"I'm Kyle, by the way," the man says in one video.

That man now appears to be Kyle Rittenhouse, according to numerous videos from Tuesday night posted online and a Facebook account with pictures that match the man in the video. On Wednesday, Rittenhouse, 17, of Antioch, Illinois, was arrested and faces a warrant alleging first-degree intentional homicide in connection with the shooting deaths of two people during protests over the shooting by police of Jacob Blake, a Black man, in Kenosha, Wisconsin.

The videos, recorded Tuesday night by journalists and people on the streets of Kenosha, appeared to show Rittenhouse before the shootings in which he was arrested. Other videos appeared to have captured at least some of the violence he is accused of.

The videos are an incomplete account of the incident, but they do offer some snapshots of the events as they unfolded. In one video, the man runs from a group of people while talking on a cellphone. "I just killed somebody," he seems to say. In another, more graphic, video, the man runs down a street while being chased. He falls and begins to shoot, and one person collapses nearby.

Two people died and one person was injured in the shootings during Tuesday night's protests in Kenosha, which formed after police shot Blake. Like many protesters in recent months, people who had turned out to demand police reform were met by armed pro-police counteractivists, many of whom have said they sought to stop the destruction of property.

Many of those scenes have turned violent, as Tuesday night in Kenosha did.

At least four videos of the man who appears to be Rittenhouse had been uploaded to the internet as of Wednesday afternoon. In one, he is interviewed by a journalist for the conservative news website The Daily Caller, in which he spoke about why he was on the street.

"People are getting injured, and our job is to protect this business, and part of my job is to also help people," he said. "If there's somebody hurt, I'm running into harm's way. That's why I have my rifle, because I have to protect myself, obviously, but I also have my med kit."

It was not clear whether Rittenhouse had any connection to The Kenosha Guard, a self-identified local militia that had set up an event on Facebook calling for people to take weapons into the streets. According to the group's Facebook page, the militia asked: "Any patriots willing to take up arms and defend [our] City tonight from the evil thugs? No doubt they are currently planning on the next part of the City to burn tonight!"

Numerous videos from the streets of Kenosha on Tuesday evening showed groups of armed white men in military-style gear standing outside businesses in the city, and they recorded confrontations between militia members and protesters.

The Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab, which tracks online extremism, issued a report Wednesday detailing the calls for armed people to go to Kenosha.

"The seeds of potential violence were planted over the course of the day leading up it," through posts in Facebook groups and on Reddit boards, which "encouraged militiamen and other armed individuals to head to Kenosha, ostensibly to protect local businesses from protesters," the report said.

Rittenhouse's online footprint shows strong support for law enforcement. A Facebook page in his name with pictures that match the person who identified himself as Kyle included a variety of pro-police content that has become common in conservative circles, including support for "Blue Lives Matter." Rittenhouse posted numerous photos of himself carrying long guns, along with several photos of the Blue Lives Matter signature flag, and he circled his profile photo with pro-police borders.

Rittenhouse also appeared to have participated in a youth police training program. A photo of a youth who appears to be Rittenhouse in a uniform was posted in 2017 on the Public Safety Cadets page of the Lindenhurst, Grayslake, Hainesville Police Department, with the caption, "Oh hey Kyle!"

The police department had removed or made private the Facebook page where the post had appeared Wednesday, along with its public webpage, and it did not respond to a request for comment. The original post was viewed through Google's web cache.

Rittenhouse also seems to have posted videos to several TikTok accounts. One account, with a bio that read "Trump 2020, and BLUE LIVES MATTER," featured several videos of Rittenhouse shooting guns. A video posted from a second associated account was taken at a Trump rally in Des Moines, Iowa, on Jan. 30. As BuzzFeed News first reported, news video of the event appears to show Rittenhouse seated near the front
He wanted to be a police officer,I guess he'll have to settle for license plate maker :?


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magz
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27 Aug 2020, 11:03 am

Quote:
"People are getting injured, and our job is to protect this business, and part of my job is to also help people," he said. "If there's somebody hurt, I'm running into harm's way. That's why I have my rifle, because I have to protect myself, obviously, but I also have my med kit."

And then he shoots people in the heads.


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27 Aug 2020, 11:41 am

magz wrote:
Quote:
"People are getting injured, and our job is to protect this business, and part of my job is to also help people," he said. "If there's somebody hurt, I'm running into harm's way. That's why I have my rifle, because I have to protect myself, obviously, but I also have my med kit."

And then he shoots people in the heads.


I'm confused about this part of the article. Was the guy who was arrested the one making this quote?



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27 Aug 2020, 11:50 am

Yes, the quote is from an interview made before the shooting.

Quote:
In an interview on Tuesday night before the shootings, he echoes police language when telling a journalist why he is armed.
"Part of my job also is to protect people. If someone is hurt, I'm running into harm's way," he says.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53934109


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27 Aug 2020, 6:38 pm

magz wrote:
Quote:
"People are getting injured, and our job is to protect this business, and part of my job is to also help people," he said. "If there's somebody hurt, I'm running into harm's way. That's why I have my rifle, because I have to protect myself, obviously, but I also have my med kit."

And then he shoots people in the heads.


My understanding (I could be wrong) is that the person shot in the head had thrown something (possibly a molotov) at the teenager, who returned fire.

Not sure if that is correct, but he appears to have moved to help the person who had been shot, but ran when he knew someone was performing first aid and a mob started charging at him (Based on footage of the riots, I doubt whether the mob would bother asking what happened, and would rush to judgement\mob justice). I understand that the police there had told him to leave after the later shootings, which was why he had returned home.



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27 Aug 2020, 8:03 pm

From article tracing his movements:

Quote:
He eventually leaves the dealership and is barred by the police from returning. Six minutes later footage shows Mr. Rittenhouse being chased by an unknown group of people into the parking lot of another dealership several blocks away.

First shooting

While Mr. Rittenhouse is being pursued by the group, an unknown gunman fires into the air, though it’s unclear why. The weapon’s muzzle flash appears in footage filmed at the scene.

Mr. Rittenhouse turns toward the sound of gunfire as another pursuer lunges toward him from the same direction. Mr. Rittenhouse then fires four times, and appears to shoot the man in the head.

Second shooting

Mr. Rittenhouse seems to make a phone call and then flees the scene. Several people chase him, some shouting, “That’s the shooter!”

As Mr. Rittenhouse is running, he trips and falls to the ground. He fires four shots as three people rush toward him. One person appears to be hit in the chest and falls to the ground. Another, who is carrying a handgun, is hit in the arm and runs away.

Mr. Rittenhouse’s gunfire is mixed in with the sound of at least 16 other gunshots that ring out during this time.

Police response

As this happens, police vehicles just one block away remain stationary during the gunfire.

Mr. Rittenhouse walks with his hands up toward the police vehicles. Bystanders call out to the officers that he had just shot people.

The police drive by him without stopping, on their way to assist the victims.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/27/us/kyle-rittenhouse-kenosha-shooting-video.html

Seems there is a possibility it could come down to "self defence", depending on what the laws in the state\area are regarding this. The first may be questionable, but the combination of the shot fired into the air, along with a person lunging at him, may (or may not) assist with this.

Seems there is more to this story than the impression of a person setting to kill people, as had been portrayed so far



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27 Aug 2020, 8:09 pm

That doesn't seem like it'd qualify as self defense. The standards to use that as a defense are pretty high.

A gun going off in a crowd is not sufficient.


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Brictoria
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27 Aug 2020, 8:27 pm

alex wrote:
That doesn't seem like it'd qualify as self defense. The standards to use that as a defense are pretty high.

A gun going off in a crowd is not sufficient.


Not sure on that:
Quote:
939.48  Self-defense and defense of others.
(1)  A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.

Source: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/939/III/48/1m

It would come down to "unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself." - Being chased (particularly if there is no lawful reason for this), hearing shots and having people lunging at you may potentially qualify for this.



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27 Aug 2020, 8:40 pm

Brictoria wrote:
alex wrote:
That doesn't seem like it'd qualify as self defense. The standards to use that as a defense are pretty high.

A gun going off in a crowd is not sufficient.


Not sure on that:
Quote:
939.48  Self-defense and defense of others.
(1)  A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.

Source: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/939/III/48/1m

It would come down to "unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself." - Being chased (particularly if there is no lawful reason for this), hearing shots and having people lunging at you may potentially qualify for this.


There's no imminent death there. People running towards you doesn't result in you reasonably believing it's necessary to shoot at them to prevent them from killing you. Neither does a gun being shot in the air.


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Brictoria
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27 Aug 2020, 9:05 pm

alex wrote:
Brictoria wrote:
alex wrote:
That doesn't seem like it'd qualify as self defense. The standards to use that as a defense are pretty high.

A gun going off in a crowd is not sufficient.


Not sure on that:
Quote:
939.48  Self-defense and defense of others.
(1)  A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person. The actor may intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself.

Source: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/939/III/48/1m

It would come down to "unless the actor reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself." - Being chased (particularly if there is no lawful reason for this), hearing shots and having people lunging at you may potentially qualify for this.


There's no imminent death there. People running towards you doesn't result in you reasonably believing it's necessary to shoot at them to prevent them from killing you. Neither does a gun being shot in the air.


That would depend: If you were being chased down a street by a mob who had been vandalising property\setting fires\etc., and heard gunshots very close to you, along with someone lunging at you, it will be a different situation to sitting behind a desk with none of that actual "atmosphere" that contributed to his reactions. From his point of view, he may have believed the shot was aimed at him, and that more would follow if he was unable to get away from the area (hence firing at someone lunging at him who was trying to stop him retreating). Through the entire sequence, he appears to be running FROM the trouble, not towards it.

Whether it was "appropriate" will be decided in court, but it's unfair to make snap judgements without knowing what was happening at the time along with what led up to it, nor considering the situation as a whole rather than focussing on just his firing his weapon.



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27 Aug 2020, 9:21 pm

Brictoria wrote:
magz wrote:
Quote:
"People are getting injured, and our job is to protect this business, and part of my job is to also help people," he said. "If there's somebody hurt, I'm running into harm's way. That's why I have my rifle, because I have to protect myself, obviously, but I also have my med kit."

And then he shoots people in the heads.


My understanding (I could be wrong) is that the person shot in the head had thrown something (possibly a molotov) at the teenager, who returned fire.

Not sure if that is correct, but he appears to have moved to help the person who had been shot, but ran when he knew someone was performing first aid and a mob started charging at him (Based on footage of the riots, I doubt whether the mob would bother asking what happened, and would rush to judgement\mob justice). I understand that the police there had told him to leave after the later shootings, which was why he had returned home.


Well he just shot a person in the head probably not appropriate even if he did throw something, so err why shouldn't they have charged him? He was shooting people, for all they knew he was going for a mass shooting. Also, I don't think the general protrotocal should be 'just move along now' after you just shot 3 people, they should have arrested him on the spot.


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27 Aug 2020, 11:14 pm

Interesting discussion between 2 lawyers analysing what happened, one of whom is a former police officer and District Attorney (a bit over 2 hours long, first 30-40 minutes covers a fair bit of information):


Also goes over applicable laws, and how the events can be construed from both sides.