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[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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TwilightPrincess
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08 Nov 2023, 1:45 am

cyberdad wrote:
After seeing this I lost all respect for the people there.
So your prejudice towards Palestinians, perhaps Palestinian men in particular, is based largely on this specific video?

It's impossible to say if thousands of men were involved from this clip alone, but the jeerers do not reflect the millions of people in Palestine. Once again, the numbers demonstrate that not everyone is pro-Hamas.

Many people come out to support any number of hate groups in the world, but the supporters don't represent nations as a whole and the many people who do not come out to support or jeer, not even when the hate group in question is running the country. The information I posted earlier from Snopes demonstrates that.

I can't imagine losing respect for an entire, large demographic for such reasons.



IsabellaLinton
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08 Nov 2023, 1:58 am

^^

Does that video mean it's the Palestinian children's fault?
How about the babies, or senior citizens, or disabled people?

Do their deaths matter less as a result of those buffoons?
Do we not care about the kids' siblings or mothers or fathers?
Do we give up on hope and humanitarian aid?
Do war crimes no longer matter, so long as they're committed by "the good guys" ?

Imo it's all the more tragic that dead children had no choice where they were born.
By that I mean Israel or Palestine, or even Germany as the case may be.

I think that's been the point of this thread, and it should get back on track.


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TwilightPrincess
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08 Nov 2023, 2:04 am

Also, what about the men who are disgusted by such cruelty and want no part of it? Imagine what it would be like for people to associate you with such horrific behavior simply because of your nationality and, perhaps, race/ethnicity.

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Does that video mean it's the Palestinian children's fault?
How about the babies, or senior citizens, or disabled people?

Do their deaths matter less as a result of those buffoons?
Do we not care about the kids' siblings or mothers or fathers?
Do we give up on hope and humanitarian aid?
Do war crimes no longer matter, so long as they're committed by "the good guys" ?

Imo it's all the more tragic that dead children had no choice where they were born.
By that I mean Israel or Palestine, or even Germany as the case may be.

I think that's been the point of this thread, and it should get back on track.

Absolutely.



IsabellaLinton
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08 Nov 2023, 2:13 am

Did people lose respect for all Americans after 1/6?
Maybe they did.
I don't know.

I thought people were humans first and citizens second.
That's how I was raised, anyway.

I knew nothing about that young woman in the truck until now.
Of course it's horrendous and upsetting.

Terrorism is aptly named.


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Jono
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08 Nov 2023, 3:48 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Anyway the whole “nation building” discussion began when I opined that if Israel defeats Hamas they will have to take over Gaza because no one else will. Well, it looks like other countries will not be getting that chance

Israel open to 'little pauses' in Gaza fighting, Netanyahu says
Quote:
Netanyahu made the comments in a U.S. television interview during which he was asked who should govern Gaza after fighting is over.

I think Israel will for an indefinite period have the overall security responsibility because we've seen what happens when we don't have that security responsibility," Netanyahu told ABC News.

Bolding=mine


Well, the Biden administration doesn't like the option of Israel re-occupying Gaza. Besides, that will prolong Israel's security problems, not improve them, since Hamas is not the only Palestinian terrorist group. The only way to really do is to let the PLO take control of Gaza, but that can also only happen in exchange for a complete withdrawal from the West Bank and transferring the administration of the West Bank settlements and infrastructure over to the Palestinians. The settlers won't like being uprooted though.



The_Face_of_Boo
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08 Nov 2023, 4:07 am



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFYRmAD ... hannel=CNN



cyberdad
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08 Nov 2023, 4:09 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
I can't imagine losing respect for an entire, large demographic for such reasons.


I'm sorry but facts don't lie
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conf ... cle-746400

I don't respect people who think armed struggle can resolve old historic grievances.



The_Face_of_Boo
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08 Nov 2023, 4:33 am

^^
Old historic grievances? The killings haven't stopped from both sides since the 1948. And the settlements in West Bank haven't stopped expanding ever since too.
The two peoples hate so much each other with trust issues because the root cause of the conflict is still going on.

Most Isrealis don't belive in the two state solution too,
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230 ... -israelis/

They claim it cannot coexist peacefully; but why so? Both Egypt and Jordan coexisted peacefully with Israel for decades. Half of Jordan's population are of palestinian origin.



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08 Nov 2023, 4:51 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^^
Old historic grievances? The killings haven't stopped from both sides since the 1948. And the settlements in West Bank haven't stopped expanding ever since too.
The two peoples hate so much each other with trust issues because the root cause of the conflict is still going on.

Most Isrealis don't belive in the two state solution too,
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230 ... -israelis/

They claim it cannot coexist peacefully; but why so? Both Egypt and Jordan coexisted peacefully with Israel for decades. Half of Jordan's population are of palestinian origin.


I thought that the settlements in the West Bank started after the Six Day War in 1967? Anyway, it doesn't matter. A two-state solution can't happen as long as the settlements are there and continue to be expanded. I don't think that it can happen as long as Isamicist groups like Hamas exist and continue to want to eradicate Israel in it's entirety either.



cyberdad
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08 Nov 2023, 5:22 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Half of Jordan's population are of palestinian origin.


Indeed Queen Rania is Palestinian.



cyberdad
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08 Nov 2023, 5:33 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
They claim it cannot coexist peacefully; but why so? Both Egypt and Jordan coexisted peacefully with Israel for decades. Half of Jordan's population are of palestinian origin.


Not to mention Palestinians who live in the state of Israel who have a higher standard of living than their counterparts in the West Bank and Gaza



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08 Nov 2023, 6:20 am

I see a fallacy in this discussion which is to assume that if somebody blames one side or the other for this conflict, then that person can only validate the suffering of the civilian population represented by the other side. I see no validity to this. If anybody truly cares more about civilians on one side rather than the other, they should speak up because I don't see it.


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Last edited by MaxE on 08 Nov 2023, 6:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

The_Face_of_Boo
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08 Nov 2023, 6:31 am

Jono wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^^
Old historic grievances? The killings haven't stopped from both sides since the 1948. And the settlements in West Bank haven't stopped expanding ever since too.
The two peoples hate so much each other with trust issues because the root cause of the conflict is still going on.

Most Isrealis don't belive in the two state solution too,
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230 ... -israelis/

They claim it cannot coexist peacefully; but why so? Both Egypt and Jordan coexisted peacefully with Israel for decades. Half of Jordan's population are of palestinian origin.


I thought that the settlements in the West Bank started after the Six Day War in 1967? Anyway, it doesn't matter. A two-state solution can't happen as long as the settlements are there and continue to be expanded. I don't think that it can happen as long as Isamicist groups like Hamas exist and continue to want to eradicate Israel in it's entirety either.



Don’t forget the Nation-State bill too.



TwilightPrincess
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08 Nov 2023, 6:42 am

cyberdad wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
I can't imagine losing respect for an entire, large demographic for such reasons.


I'm sorry but facts don't lie
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conf ... cle-746400

I don't respect people who think armed struggle can resolve old historic grievances.

:|

According to the the link you cited:
Quote:
The poll, conducted by the Ramallah-based Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research, also showed that Palestinian support for the two-state solution remains as low as it was three months ago. Support for a two-state solution stands at 28%, and opposition to it stands at 70%. Three months ago, support for the two-state solution stood at 27%.

In addition, 52% of the Palestinians believe that the armed struggle against Israel is the most effective means to end the Israeli “occupation” and build a Palestinian state. Twenty-one percent said they supported achieving these goals through negotiations, while 22% preferred the “popular resistance.”

Going with the assumption that the poll results are an accurate depiction of reality, 52% is not everyone. Also, while they supported an armed conflict, they may not all have been in favor of the exact way things were carried out by Hamas. Once again, why would such data cause people to "lose all respect for the people there?" Clearly, not everyone in Palestine agrees on this issue, just as not everyone supports Hamas. The fact that almost half the population are children compounds the issue further.

Information from Snopes from November 1st:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
Quote:
There was no comprehensive, nonpartisan data to definitively measure Palestinians' support for Hamas in 2023, and numerous polls conducted within months of each other showed shifting views among Palestinians based on the circumstances and timing.

According to one survey that was conducted just days before the 2023 war broke out, about 44% of respondents said they had no trust in Hamas, while 29% said they have a "great deal" of trust. That poll by Arab Barometer, in partnership with West Bank-based independent think tank, Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PCPSR) included 790 people in the West Bank and 399 people in Gaza, roughly one-quarter of whom said they would vote for Haniyeh in a hypothetical, future election. Additionally, most people who answered the survey (73%) said they did not share Hamas' goal of eliminating Israel.

Months earlier, a PCPSR poll in June 2023 found that if presidential elections were to be held between Fatah’s Abbas and Hamas’ Haniyeh, Haniyeh would likely win 56% of the vote to Abbas’ 33%. That survey polled 1270 adults interviewed in 127 randomly selected locations in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. However, according to that survey, less than half of respondents (46%) said they would participate in the voting if Abbas and Haniyeh were the only candidates. On the other hand, if the candidates were to run in parliamentary elections, Hamas would likely get 34% of the popular vote, compared to Fatah’s 31%, according to the poll. The survey also found a majority of participants supported the formation of armed groups independent of the Palestinian Authority.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/11/01/ ... ect-hamas/

^ Lots of good information there.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 08 Nov 2023, 7:26 am, edited 8 times in total.

MaxE
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08 Nov 2023, 6:54 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Jono wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
^^
Old historic grievances? The killings haven't stopped from both sides since the 1948. And the settlements in West Bank haven't stopped expanding ever since too.
The two peoples hate so much each other with trust issues because the root cause of the conflict is still going on.

Most Isrealis don't belive in the two state solution too,
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230 ... -israelis/

They claim it cannot coexist peacefully; but why so? Both Egypt and Jordan coexisted peacefully with Israel for decades. Half of Jordan's population are of palestinian origin.


I thought that the settlements in the West Bank started after the Six Day War in 1967? Anyway, it doesn't matter. A two-state solution can't happen as long as the settlements are there and continue to be expanded. I don't think that it can happen as long as Isamicist groups like Hamas exist and continue to want to eradicate Israel in it's entirety either.



Don’t forget the Nation-State bill too.

As I remember it, Jewish settlement of land formerly under Jordanian control began in the 1970s, and at first it seemed those carrying this out were rogue elements. However as time went on, it became apparent that these "extremists" were actually carrying out government policy. This was around the time Likud became the dominant party. I don't know how the Labor Party felt about settlement. Ironically, the Labor Party died as it came to be seen as élitist. It represented white Jews from Europe and was resented by the "oriental" majority.


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08 Nov 2023, 7:32 am

To expand on what I just said, given that Labor was seen as élitist, the non-European majority may have had the impression that the Labor constituency were sufficiently well off that they could live comfortably within pre-1967 borders, whereas the Likud constituency demanded access to land previously held by Jordan, and to a far lesser extent Egypt and Syria, as an opportunity for decent housing.

As an aside, "oriental" Jews didn't directly experience the Holocaust, for the most part, which may help led to them having a different perspective on the whole human rights issue than original Zionists. Also they came from countries in which multiculturalism was an alien concept. Points to ponder.


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