What are the odds of this being another William Freund?

Post Reply New Topic

Thank you, Danlo.

We are in the process of redoing the Terms of Service. Would you mind dropping that idea into the thread about ideas for it. It is certainly worth considering.

BeeBee

First of all there is such a thing as collective responsibility in society and it is complicated. Like most people youd rather forget that and just condemn without accepting anything. We are all to blame for the way society is and the extremes that it allows. The guy was seriously showing problems here and most definately in real life and there where those in the community that decided to bully him instead of get him help. That doesnt stop him being the one responsible for his actions.

I never said that Asperger's is definately a mental ilness, it is up for debate but im pretty sure that its down in the criteria officially along with Downs syndrome and scizophrenia which has a lot of overlap with Aspergers. Why should that make someone want to kill themselves for not doing anything wrong? Should people with mental illnesses want to kill themselves?

Personally i dont care what label we have as long as it is accepted as something that exists, deserves understanding and respect and isnt just being delibaretly awkward etc and there are resources put into this.

Sorry Duncvis, but Danlo asked me for evidence. Here it is:

On page 5 of this thread.

As usual, it is the right-wingers with all their "personal responsibility" BS that come up trumps for the least compassionate responses to such disasters. These things only happen in the US because of the sh***y society you live in. In Britain, he would have got free care on the NHS, just like I did when I was suicidal 2 years ago. I'm fine now because of that!!

I am not saying anyone is to blame, but we should be more accepting and welcoming to people who join this community in future, even if they are weirder than most of us.

Lol, goodo, RobertN. I'd forgotten that post.
Ante, sorry for calling you an ass.

Oh, right. So what you’re saying is that despite the fact that the likes of me and Danlo condemned his act of murdering other people, we don’t know what it’s like to be suicidal? Please. I know I’ve been suicidal plenty of times (and I believe that Danlo has too). But the difference between us and him is that despite the difficulties we have endured (and still do), we still cling on to hope that things will be better for us.



Don’t compare me to those self-absorbed booksmarts here who believes that their autism is what makes them smarter than other people. I fully acknowledge the difficulties associated with autism (why would I be on benefit if I didn’t?), but that doesn’t mean to say that just because you have a handicap you can’t work or do other things that most disabled people can‘t. There are autistics who are fortunate enough to be brought up in a positive environment where they’ve gotten the best family support and education, which is why there are those who have managed to integrate into society better than some autistics who are without such support. It’s all down to the environment you are brought up in.

The problem I have with the likes of Ante is that they are so quick to blame everything on their autism while they miss out on other factors which have contributed to their negative attitude. How can you live a happy life if you’re going to continue to find fault with something that is a part of you? If he reads articles from the likes of Amanda Baggs or Michelle Dawson, two advocates who originally despised being autistic. And after they’ve researched the actual science behind this neurological difference, they’ve learnt a great deal about themselves more than what they have been told by the pro-cure lobby.

Last edited by thepeaguy on 31 Oct 2005, 11:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

Downs Syndrome is a mental illness? Since when? I think you're getting your facts crossed. Downs Syndrome is when they have an extra chromosone (or missing one, can't remember). At any rate, it is a genetic deformity, not mental illness. However, mental illness occurs in around 30% of people with Downs Syndrome, but Downs Syndrome is definately not a mental illness.

People!

Please debate the topic is you must but can't we be civil. No name calling.

State your position. People are smart enough to figure out who's position you don't agree with.

BeeBee

I also agree with a privacy policy as well. When someone makes clear that suicide or carnage is their intention though it gets more complicated and maybe it is our duty to contact someone? That's not blaming anyone just thinking of what we could do better in the future in hindsight. Of course you need to be sure they are serious and not just letting off steam but that's why i think there should be open discussion instead of silencing anyone from subjects that might make us squirm a little.

Came as a shock to me too. Ante mentioned that Asperger's is a mental illness before this and i disagreed and somebody posted a link to them and Asperger's and Downs came up much to my shock. It is genetical but often schizophrenia runs in families and having a genetic disorder doesnt neccesarily exclude it being a mental ilness. I would be interested in debating these labels as i think mental illness is an unfair way of putting something like Asperger's or Downs but since we dont fit into the NT bracket usually i can see how they do this.

Well, not plenty of times, only a couple. I'm too afraid to ever cut deep enough. What stops me, is not hope of better stuff, but because I love my family too much. You cause a lot more problems by killing yourself, than you solve. Look at what has happened with WrongPlanet, and we didn't even know him. People start feeling guilty, thinking about what they could have done, how they are to blame. It is much more intense when you are their family.

I have, however, had a couple of psychotic episodes, so I know what its like. Its not pleasant, having thoughts and planning how to kill people running through your head. It even appears to be a sound logical idea, and that it is RIGHT to do it. But I would never follow through with it. There is no excuse or justification for killing other people, mentally ill or not.

Peaguy, how do you know your problems are even anywhere near as big as Will Fruends were? He clearly had a hell of a lot wrong with him. Enduring doesnt make you any better than people that have committed suicide as there are many human beings with little or no redeeming features who manage to survive and thrive by being absolute pricks IMO (this is not to say anyone here is like that, i very much doubt it) and there are many who where loving good people who have commoted suicide in a drunken moment of madness or if they are feeling down.

I agree pointing the finger isnt the best thing to do in this situation as it is hard enough to take in already without that but i can understand why Ante done it and going on a withhunt of him isnt the best thing to do either.

Last edited by eamonn on 31 Oct 2005, 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

The problem with contacting someone is who do you contact? Their screenname and details may leave as much out as possible to protect privacy. It may have been a cry for a help or it could have been a way to draw attention. We don't know what was going through his mind? Plus internet allows to a certain extent anonymity. While he may have cried out for help. His actions didn't fully show that he was going to really accept it because he kept saying over and over that there was no other alternative for him so it's apparent he likely may not have been fully wanting the help that people offered. As some previous posters have said, yes some of us are guilty of being cynical, some too naive, we all have our issues, pointing fingers at people don't help. It was Will's choice to choose the actions he brought forth on himself and an innocent family, noone else. We're not professionals here. All one can do is put a list of resources somewhere in a thread and hope they find it, some people are just so set in their minds on their actions, no matter what anyone says on the internet or in their lives matters very little to them. I feel bad for those that he chose to take down with him in his 'despair'. Do I feel bad about what he chose to do to himself? That's debateable. He could have chosen to seek help by professionals and such that were in his location, a helpline or something, but he came here and didn't aid his situation by asking for money, threats demanding what he wanted and such either. He could have made things better for himself if he hadn't set himself on such a destructive path. Nobody can be faulted for not believing him, some of his posts were confusing and everyone interprets differently. I've dealt with suicide before myself as I've tried numerous times in my life when I was younger and losing people that I cared about to it... but on the net, you can't fully tell what is real and what's not and that complicates everything. No I don't think Ante had personally any right to send posts and all such to the media and all, that is a breech of privacy no matter what a person posted on how they feel, it is a breech in trust in the community and towards its members. I think Danlo is right in the idea of an agreement to protect that privacy and trust.

As for calling AS a mental illness, I can say that's hooey. It's a neurological condition, that's pretty much proven fact. Mental illness are more often caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, not the wiring of the brain. And to try and classify AS as a mental illness doesn't help us period in being accepted and understood, instead it just opens up the label of 'crazy', 'unstable', etc. that people often stigmatize with mental illness.

Last edited by MishLuvsHer2Boys on 31 Oct 2005, 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

What's the link they posted, Eamonn?

There might be no excuse for Will Fruends actions but there was probably no excuse for the bullying he apparently endured but people dont tend to care.

Im not sure how to link it. It is in "Mental illness forums" in the general discussion forum.

Ahha, I think I see the problem. The list most websites seem to have, derive directly from the DSM, aka the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. They then go on to call the list a list of Mental Illnesses. But Mental Disorders is not synonymous with Mental Illnesses, they are different things. I don't disagree that autism is considered a mental disorder, aka different to the norm. But a mental illness, it is not, under the Mental Health Act 1983.