Bombings in Oslo, Norway; shootings
27 Jul 2011, 2:12 pm
ok, Inventor, I think I see what you're getting at - and I agree that we as humans are predetermined to seek an enemy outside of our group/tribe so that we could defend the tribe and feel utilised (at least some of us are definitely this way). I'm sure that if this was the Viking times, Breivik would've made a great and probably legendary warrior.
thing is, times change. and the tribe that initially was around 148 (Dunbar's number) expanded with time. all of us Europeans, we're so different yet we've been co-existing peacefully for 6 decades and it looks like we'll continue to do so, despite the "cultural differences". there's no reason to believe that we couldn't, in the future, co-exist peacefully with muslims and whatnot, and eventually expand our group conciousness to include all humanity (and maybe more? all primates? all mammals? one can only hope)
why seek confrontation? you seem to believe that we can never get along. yet we are all humans and we differ more between each other than our ethnic or national groups differ between each other.
what if we get invaded by an alien race? what then? do you believe we'd divide? no, we'd fight as one human race against another (alien) race. yet while we're still alone, we invent all those ridiculous differences. if I'm interpreting Breivik's writings correctly, he was more driven by hatred in itself - directed everywhere, towards women, muslims, socialists, those who disagreed with him, pretty much anything that wasn't him or exactly like him - than by any logical cultural difference. even though in the times of knights, that he seems so much to miss, he would've probably have been some potato-digging prole with no perspectives.
_________________
not a bug - a feature.
28 Jul 2011, 12:53 am
I can't begin to tell you how angry I am at this psycho prick, Beck, right now.
For the uninformed, who is Glenn Beck?
He's a right wing huckster who has largely inbred, brainless crackers and rednecks listening for every word to tumble from his lips. Basically, he tells people on the far right what they want to hear, by twisting facts, telling half-truths, and all out lies. The man is a first class demagogue and rank self promoter who got famous on Fox news for a few years as their biggest money maker, till he chased away their sponsors with his vile, insane rhetoric. He was instrumental in pushing lies, such as that Obama's health care reforms involved killing old people, that liberal progressive ideology is equal to communism and Nazism, and that Muslim Americans, and labor union members are enemies of our country, etc. I could go on and on, but I'd be typing all night.
Needless to say, I strongly dislike the man, but what he said about the children who were victims of that lunatic is unpardonable.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Rhetorical Question: Why do I get the feeling the clip is just another out-of-context sound bite?
Answer: Because that is the same tactic people have repeatedly used to attempt to smear him in the past.
It wasn't out of context, because he addressed the topic (the Oslo shooting), and then made the infuriatingly insensitive remark that the labor party youth camp was comparable to the Hitler Youth, without even condemning the shooter.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Again, you said you saw a clip, not the full show, you've already been burned when you used clips to make comments about Glenn Beck before, the statement you made about him advocating violence remember, where I showed that what you posted was a small clip that was totally out of context.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,593
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,593
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
28 Jul 2011, 11:58 am
Compared to what? It does not hold a candle to the incineration of Dresden or the nuking of Hiroshima or Nagasaki or the burning down of downtown Tokyo in 1945.
More people die in automobile accidents than on that beach in Norway.
ruveyn
But not that many people die in automobile accidents all at once. And the operative word is accident - not because of the machinations of some hate filled social misfit.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
28 Jul 2011, 12:20 pm
Anna -now some of us proles are very happy being proles. He should have given it a try. It's good for whatever it is the religious call a soul . It's honest if you make it so, and you can wash the dirt off in a shower every night, sometimes in a bucket in the yard is best, and sleep sound and solid the whole night through. Beer tastes good a swell . Perspectives are a pack of cards for a particular game , never a reason to kill anyone over.
28 Jul 2011, 1:35 pm
thing is, times change. and the tribe that initially was around 148 (Dunbar's number) expanded with time. all of us Europeans, we're so different yet we've been co-existing peacefully for 6 decades and it looks like we'll continue to do so, despite the "cultural differences". there's no reason to believe that we couldn't, in the future, co-exist peacefully with muslims and whatnot, and eventually expand our group conciousness to include all humanity (and maybe more? all primates? all mammals? one can only hope)
why seek confrontation? you seem to believe that we can never get along. yet we are all humans and we differ more between each other than our ethnic or national groups differ between each other.
what if we get invaded by an alien race? what then? do you believe we'd divide? no, we'd fight as one human race against another (alien) race. yet while we're still alone, we invent all those ridiculous differences. if I'm interpreting Breivik's writings correctly, he was more driven by hatred in itself - directed everywhere, towards women, muslims, socialists, those who disagreed with him, pretty much anything that wasn't him or exactly like him - than by any logical cultural difference. even though in the times of knights, that he seems so much to miss, he would've probably have been some potato-digging prole with no perspectives.
"One man's freedom ends where another man's begins."
Crossing that line is the general cause of conflict.
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
From this point of view the Right has shown more tolerance of other views than the Left.
When it comes to the public world, the Right does accept change, times do change, and we have to go along. The Left wants to demand total change by Law, to some undefined New Age Future now, that they will run.
The view from Seattle is not the view from Mississippi.
One size fits all does not work when all are not the same.
Mississippi/Greece does not have the same as Silicon Valley/Germany, and imposing the rule of law on both does lead to a lowering of standards, employment, health care, in the lesser economies.
What would have happened in several generations, developing an economy through education and technology, creating a social need for a more inclusive group, has been set back, if not made impossible, by National Laws.
Our recent Universal Health Care is one. I think it is a good idea, health care as a National Service. When something like the 1918 Flu strikes, it is no time to be refusing to treat because people do not have health insurance. It is needed for the public good.
The law that was passed put the cost on employers. Another tax, $1,000 a month per employee. Perhaps Silicon Valley could pay, but in Mississippi it doubles the cost of hiring. The result, less are hired.
It is not a National Health Program, it is the result of lobbying by Insurance Companies, who will run the program for the government, and Health Providers, and it joins with other national programs, Medicaid, Medicare, that already cost twice per person what all European, Canadian, nations spend for Universal Health Care. The quality of service is very low.
The result is no one is hiring, and illegals do not call for paperwork.
This also blocks the formation of new employers, as a Mom and Pop hiring two, has the same compliance reports, filings, fees, as a major corportion.
Many of our laws could be called the Major Money Center Protection Acts.
The formation of new enterprise in depressed areas is blocked by law, unless it is a major player coming to exploit the locals.
Health Care and Business are but examples of the flaws of National Programs. When the same people want to pass Social Laws, they generate the same problems.
As a nation, we are fragmenting. I do not have any, "Friends in Congress."
All of the major Business, Social, and Religious groups act like my enemy.
Enemies are needed to promote one group over another.
As an older white business owner, who thinks the Constitution is the document that binds our country together, I have been labeled a potential terrorist by Homeland Security.
28 Jul 2011, 1:51 pm
Inventor , if this Anders Behring Breivik guy gets labelled as an Aspie we're all going to be potential terrorists. What the hell happened to the world as it was - I am told today , by an ex police bike cop not to buy a trails bike because groups of people now follow riders home and they get stolen with massive frequency. Years back we used to leave them overnight in the streets. We have huge organised crime, huge dissafected and aleinated criminally minded groups and no central morality, and its a free for all. This isn't an aspie rant against change this is an observation echoed by millions of people living here.
What I just said flags me as a potential terrorist wheather I am repeating what an ex cop has told me or forming my opinion based on obseravation. I don't trust the right or the left and we got to be careful and keep or eyes wide open in the days ahead.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,593
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
28 Jul 2011, 1:59 pm
thing is, times change. and the tribe that initially was around 148 (Dunbar's number) expanded with time. all of us Europeans, we're so different yet we've been co-existing peacefully for 6 decades and it looks like we'll continue to do so, despite the "cultural differences". there's no reason to believe that we couldn't, in the future, co-exist peacefully with muslims and whatnot, and eventually expand our group conciousness to include all humanity (and maybe more? all primates? all mammals? one can only hope)
why seek confrontation? you seem to believe that we can never get along. yet we are all humans and we differ more between each other than our ethnic or national groups differ between each other.
what if we get invaded by an alien race? what then? do you believe we'd divide? no, we'd fight as one human race against another (alien) race. yet while we're still alone, we invent all those ridiculous differences. if I'm interpreting Breivik's writings correctly, he was more driven by hatred in itself - directed everywhere, towards women, muslims, socialists, those who disagreed with him, pretty much anything that wasn't him or exactly like him - than by any logical cultural difference. even though in the times of knights, that he seems so much to miss, he would've probably have been some potato-digging prole with no perspectives.
"One man's freedom ends where another man's begins."
Crossing that line is the general cause of conflict.
I may disagree with everything you say, but I will defend your right to say it.
From this point of view the Right has shown more tolerance of other views than the Left.
When it comes to the public world, the Right does accept change, times do change, and we have to go along. The Left wants to demand total change by Law, to some undefined New Age Future now, that they will run.
The view from Seattle is not the view from Mississippi.
One size fits all does not work when all are not the same.
Mississippi/Greece does not have the same as Silicon Valley/Germany, and imposing the rule of law on both does lead to a lowering of standards, employment, health care, in the lesser economies.
What would have happened in several generations, developing an economy through education and technology, creating a social need for a more inclusive group, has been set back, if not made impossible, by National Laws.
Our recent Universal Health Care is one. I think it is a good idea, health care as a National Service. When something like the 1918 Flu strikes, it is no time to be refusing to treat because people do not have health insurance. It is needed for the public good.
The law that was passed put the cost on employers. Another tax, $1,000 a month per employee. Perhaps Silicon Valley could pay, but in Mississippi it doubles the cost of hiring. The result, less are hired.
It is not a National Health Program, it is the result of lobbying by Insurance Companies, who will run the program for the government, and Health Providers, and it joins with other national programs, Medicaid, Medicare, that already cost twice per person what all European, Canadian, nations spend for Universal Health Care. The quality of service is very low.
The result is no one is hiring, and illegals do not call for paperwork.
This also blocks the formation of new employers, as a Mom and Pop hiring two, has the same compliance reports, filings, fees, as a major corportion.
Many of our laws could be called the Major Money Center Protection Acts.
The formation of new enterprise in depressed areas is blocked by law, unless it is a major player coming to exploit the locals.
Health Care and Business are but examples of the flaws of National Programs. When the same people want to pass Social Laws, they generate the same problems.
As a nation, we are fragmenting. I do not have any, "Friends in Congress."
All of the major Business, Social, and Religious groups act like my enemy.
Enemies are needed to promote one group over another.
As an older white business owner, who thinks the Constitution is the document that binds our country together, I have been labeled a potential terrorist by Homeland Security.
The left is seriously more intolerant than the right? I seem to recall that it was the right that has been demonizing other Americans if they're Muslims, labor union members, or just on public assistance. And what's wrong with that the tolerance found in Seattle is practiced in Mississippi? Particularly since Mississippi has had a bloody past of oppression and murder based on racial discrimination. I would think that would be a heritage one would want to leave behind in the past.
Were you seriously labeled is a potential terrorist by Homeland Security? I ask, because most people on their list are Muslims. When the Justice Department had tried to include white right wing extremists, the Republicans jumped all over Obama for somehow trying to curtail their rights, and so the Justice Department's balls had receded back into their bodies, and they backed off.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
28 Jul 2011, 6:03 pm
This, even though he finances far-right political youth camps, himself, in the US. Seems he forgot about that.
By the way, Anders Behring Breivik has said that he was inspired by the American far right. Maybe that is why Glenn Beck doesn't seem to prefer to criticize him.... hmm....
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,593
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
28 Jul 2011, 7:42 pm
This, even though he finances far-right political youth camps, himself, in the US. Seems he forgot about that.
By the way, Anders Behring Breivik has said that he was inspired by the American far right. Maybe that is why Glenn Beck doesn't seem to prefer to criticize him.... hmm....
That's absolutely right. Maybe old Glenn has a Brown Shirt or SS uniform hidden in his closet.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
28 Jul 2011, 10:49 pm
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
As a lifelong Seattlite, I can personally attest that people here are no more tolerant than they are any other place. We're a bit more subtle about it in general, and we may discriminate against different categories of people than in other parts of the country, but we're definitely no more innocent than anyone else.
_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.
- Rick Sanchez
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,593
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
28 Jul 2011, 11:38 pm
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
As a lifelong Seattlite, I can personally attest that people here are no more tolerant than they are any other place. We're a bit more subtle about it in general, and we may discriminate against different categories of people than in other parts of the country, but we're definitely no more innocent than anyone else.
Well, I'm from the Spokane area (Spokane Valley, to be exact), and we always beat ourselves up over our self-perception of being too conservative and provincial. So, despite a few crackers around here who voice disapproval with your town, most of us are rather fond of it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
31 Jul 2011, 11:19 pm
The total death count ended up at a lower number, at least... 77. Many are still severely wounded, though.
Here's the official list of all the dead (a list accepted to be released by all the next of kin to the dead):
These people died from the Oslo bombing:
Anne Lise Holter (51)
Hanne Ekroll Løvlie (30)
Hanne M. Orvik Endresen (61)
Ida Marie Hill (34)
Jon Vegard Lervåg (32)
Kai Hauge (32)
Kjersti Berg Sand (26)
Tove Åshill Knutsen (56)
These people died from the Utøya massacre:
Aleksander Aas Eriksen (16)
Anders Kristiansen (18)
Andreas Dalby Grønnesby (17)
Andreas Edvardsen (18)
Andrine Bakkene Espeland (17)
Bano Abobakar Rashid (18)
Bendik Rosnæs Ellingsen (18)
Birgitte Smetbak (15)
Carina Borgund (18)
Diderik Aamodt Olsen (19)
Eivind Hovden (15)
Elisabeth Trønnes Lie (16)
Emil Okkenhaug (15)
Espen Jørgensen (17)
Eva Kathinka Lütken (17)
Even Flugstad Malmedal (18)
Fredrik Lund Schjetne (18)
Gizem Dogan (17)
Gunnar Linaker (23)
Guro Vartdal Håvoll (18)
Hanne Anette Balch Fjalestad (43)
Hanne Kristine Fridtun (19)
Henrik André Pedersen (27)
Henrik Rasmussen (18)
Håkon Ødegaard (17)
Håvard Vederhus (21)
Ida Beathe Rogne (17)
Ingrid Berg Heggelund (18)
Isabel Victoria Green Sogn (17)
Ismail Haji Ahmed (19)
Jamil Rafal Mohamad Yasin (20)
Johannes Buø (14)
Karar Mustafa Qasim (19)
Karin Elena Holst (15)
Kevin Daae Berland (15)
Lejla Selaci (17)
Lene Maria Bergum (19)
Margrethe Bøyum Kløven (16)
Maria Maagerø Johannesen (17)
Marianne Sandvik (16)
Modupe Ellen Awoyemi (15)
Mona Abdinur (18)
Monica Elisabeth Bøsei (45)
Monica Iselin Didriksen (18)
Porntip Ardam (21)
Rolf Christopher Johansen Perreau (25)
Ronja Søttar Johansen (17)
Rune Havdal (43)
Ruth Benedicte Vatndal Nilsen (15)
Sharidyn Svebakk-Bøhn (14)
Silje Merete Fjellbu (17)
Silje Stamneshagen (18)
Simon Sæbø (18)
Snorre Haller (30)
Sondre Furseth Dale (17)
Sondre Kjøren (17)
Steinar Jessen (16)
Sverre Flåte Bjørkavåg (28)
Synne Røyneland (18)
Syvert Knudsen (17)
Tamta Lipartelliani (23)
Tarald Kuven Mjelde (18)
Thomas Margido Antonsen (16)
Tina Sukuvara (18)
Tore Eikeland (21)
Torjus Jakobsen Blattmann (17)
Trond Berntsen (51)
Victoria Stenberg (17)
Åsta Sofie Helland Dahl (16)
01 Aug 2011, 9:11 am
I was on vacation in Norway the past couple of weeks and I was in Oslo the last day. I visited the square in front of the church and the bombing site. The amount of flowers was impressive (though I've always disliked flowers as a way of expressing emotions).
The sad thing is that the Norwegians are likely to try and pin some kind of sanity issue on him, as that's the only way they can actually lock him away for the rest of his life (as said before, Norway does not have a life sentence). I find this sad because I think the main thing this act shows is that you do not have to have some kind of mental illness to do these things. He was simply influenced by the wrong people. It has actually started a bit of a discussion in my country, with Geert Wilders (for those who do not know him, he's the leader of the anti-Islam party here) accusing the left of demonising him because they want him to reduce the aggression in his tone (he often talks about a war against Islam or a war against the left). Breivik cited Wilders as an example in his manifesto, so he's really just trying to do him off as a whackjob. On the other hand, some of Wilders' supporters have actually stated their admiration of Breivik. All of it just scares me.
I can't begin to tell you how angry I am at this psycho prick, Beck, right now.
For the uninformed, who is Glenn Beck?
He's a right wing huckster who has largely inbred, brainless crackers and rednecks listening for every word to tumble from his lips. Basically, he tells people on the far right what they want to hear, by twisting facts, telling half-truths, and all out lies. The man is a first class demagogue and rank self promoter who got famous on Fox news for a few years as their biggest money maker, till he chased away their sponsors with his vile, insane rhetoric. He was instrumental in pushing lies, such as that Obama's health care reforms involved killing old people, that liberal progressive ideology is equal to communism and Nazism, and that Muslim Americans, and labor union members are enemies of our country, etc. I could go on and on, but I'd be typing all night.
Needless to say, I strongly dislike the man, but what he said about the children who were victims of that lunatic is unpardonable.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Rhetorical Question: Why do I get the feeling the clip is just another out-of-context sound bite?
Answer: Because that is the same tactic people have repeatedly used to attempt to smear him in the past.
Tell me the context in which this was an appropriate statement? I do hope for an interesting response, because I've been racking my brain trying to figure out how any person could say such a thing.
