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LoveNotHate
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04 Aug 2015, 6:14 pm

Adamantium wrote:
I saw the video and do not believe that from it you can conclude that Tensing was caught up in the steering wheel or in the car by anything but his own voluntary action. The movement of the car and the officer took place after the shot was fired.


The prosecutor admits the car was moving before the shot was fired. He calls it "rolling". So it seems clear that the car was moving when the shot was fired.

Also, I never said the officer was caught up by the steering wheel. I just made the broad statement that he was tangled up with something. You are right though , he may not have been.


Adamantium wrote:
I am not sure what the intent of this question, but there's nothing clear about it. If the jury finds him not guilty, it will likely be because they had been convinced of some justification by his lawyer. Such a verdict might also be the result of other dynamics. I don't believe this is going to happen, but time will tell.


You earlier made the statement that he is not justified because they indicted him.

I was pointing out the silliness of that logic.

Many innocent people are indicted and convicted of crimes they did not do.



Adamantium
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04 Aug 2015, 6:19 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
You earlier made the statement that he is not justified because they indicted him.

I was pointing out the silliness of that logic.

Many innocent people are indicted and convicted of crimes they did not do.


Obviously. And Police are seldom indicted for even the most extreme crimes if they appear to have an excuse. IN this case, no justifying factor was evident to the prosecutor.

If you are seriously trying to suggest that prosecutorial approaches to the police are identical to their approach to members of the general public I can only say that you are profoundly mistaken.



LoveNotHate
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04 Aug 2015, 6:38 pm

Adamantium wrote:
s if they appear to have an excuse. IN this case, no justifying factor was evident to the prosecutor.

If you are seriously trying to suggest that prosecutorial approaches to the police are identical to their approach to members of the general public I can only say that you are profoundly mistaken.


This prosecutor made several inflammatory statements about the officer's judgment that he has since retracted.

He now says the officer was right to stop Mr. Dubose.
He now says the officer was right to ask Mr. Dubose to exit his car.
He now says the officer was right to draw his gun.

He doesn't say, however, I would assume that the officer was right to try and stop Mr. Dubose from fleeing.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion ... /31064135/



Adamantium
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04 Aug 2015, 6:45 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
He now says the officer was right to draw his gun.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion ... /31064135/


Quote:
. It was proper for Officer Tensing to make the stop. He was well within his authority to ask Mr. DuBose to exit his vehicle when he failed to produce identification. What happened after that crossed the line between good police work and committing a crime.


I suppose his comment about brandishing his weapon in the face of an unarmed man is in some other release, is it?

He is clearly facing a lot of heat from police pressure groups--we see this kind of thing all the time from the despicable PBA in New York-- but the key language still seems to be in that last bit I've quoted.



LoveNotHate
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04 Aug 2015, 7:08 pm

Adamantium wrote:
I suppose his comment about brandishing his weapon in the face of an unarmed man is in some other release, is it?


Obviously, at some point he disagrees.



eric76
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04 Aug 2015, 8:27 pm

Adamantium wrote:
If the jury finds him not guilty, it will likely be because they had been convinced of some justification by his lawyer.


Another possibility is that the jury might not think the prosecutor proved his guilt.

I used to know someone who walked on murder for that very reason. After delivering their verdict and leaving the courthouse, one or two responded to questions by the press. They stated very clearly that they thought the guy was probably guilty, but the prosecutor had not proven that he was guilty.



Adamantium
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04 Aug 2015, 9:58 pm

eric76 wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
If the jury finds him not guilty, it will likely be because they had been convinced of some justification by his lawyer.


Another possibility is that the jury might not think the prosecutor proved his guilt.

I used to know someone who walked on murder for that very reason. After delivering their verdict and leaving the courthouse, one or two responded to questions by the press. They stated very clearly that they thought the guy was probably guilty, but the prosecutor had not proven that he was guilty.


Given the video evidence, that Tensing killed Dubose by shooting him in the head at close range is undeniable.

Given that "did the accused do it" is not really a question then the matter the jury will be deciding is "did the act of killing Dubose constitute Murder 2 or Voluntary Manslaughter?" I expect that question will hinge on the defense introducing a theory that justifies the shooting. The prosecutor need only show the tape and read the details of the murder 2 and Voluntary Manslaughter charges. Unless the Defense convinces the jury that there is something wrong with the prosecutors account, something the justifies the apparently criminal act, they will find Tensing guilty.



auntblabby
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04 Aug 2015, 10:12 pm

what will happen if he manages to walk?



blauSamstag
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05 Aug 2015, 12:03 am

auntblabby wrote:
what will happen if he manages to walk?


Probably a riot. Cincy is not the kind of wheel you'd fall asleep at.



auntblabby
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05 Aug 2015, 12:09 am

I fear where this is all heading.



Adamantium
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05 Aug 2015, 6:59 am

eric76 wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
a dominant subset of American police forces are or see themselves as an occupying force at war with the colored and the poor, treating them all as insurgents. simple as that.


The other theory is that many cops know instinctively that they are no different from ancient watchmen, of the first communities, who's major job was to make sure that nobody is there who should not be.

The easiest ways to recognize someone who doesn't belong are strictly visual - wrong genetic makeup, wrong clothing indicative of wrong level of wealth, etc.

I used to drive a very ugly, beat up, crappy car. I got pulled over a lot. And the cops were typically combative. Even though i was already earning not-bad money in a technical field.

That all ended when i bought a decent looking car. I don't drive any different, I just look like i belong. Actually if anything i exceed the speed limit on a far more regular basis, and by a wider margin. I love turbos. Forced induction is the best.


I've had similar experiences. I drove an old farm pickup for many years. It didn't look like much, it wasn't all that comfortable, the heaters barely worked, but I liked it.

I used to do some consulting work at two different offices in Texas City, Texas. I'd usually show up in the late afternoon and work until very late at night, usually well after midnight.

One of the offices was very close to a bar that was popular with the younger crowd. Not once was I ever hassled by the police leaving that office late at night.

The other was downtown where there was very little traffic at night. At least once a week I would be pulled over when I was leaving and hassled. Most nights when I wasn't pulled over, I was followed out of town by the police.

While doing some work at the downtown office, I once had to have some transmission work done on my pickup and so for a couple of weeks I drove a rental car. Not once was I hassled while driving the rental car in spite of working at the same place and the same hours. It was as if I was invisible.

In my old farm pickup, I looked out of place. In the late model rental car, I didn't look out of place.

---

I've read that years ago, wealthy black businessmen with nice cars often resorted to wearing chauffeur's uniforms when driving. The police would assume they were the chauffeur for some wealthy white man and leave them alone, but if they weren't in a chauffeur's uniform, they would be hassled because they looked out of place in the typical police officer's view of the world.


The interesting thing about this dialog is that BlauSamstag presented the "watchman" theory as if it was an alternative to auntblabby's bleakly clear perspective. But the details of how this plays out mean this is the same theory in practice. Institutional racism doesn't stop being institutional racism because the enforcers of the system don't like to see themselves for what they are but prefer to think they are just watching out for the rich white people.

There's an interesting piece in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html

White people who live in multiracial communities have views on police racism that are closer to the views held by a majority of black people. It seems that a lot of the viewpoint gap on this issue is attributable to their ignorance of what is actually happening in day to day policing. When they see it, they understand that it's wrong. When they don't see it, they would prefer not to believe that it's happening.



LoveNotHate
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05 Aug 2015, 10:07 am

auntblabby wrote:
a dominant subset of American police forces are or see themselves as an occupying force at war with the colored and the poor, treating them all as insurgents. simple as that.


These are the groups who statistically commit most of the crimes. So, why wouldn't you have your police focus on them? Isn't that what a thinking person would do ?

Look at Mr. Dubose, he was reportedly arrested seventy-five times. Seventy-five times.

Don't we want to keep people like Mr. Dubose out of our neighborhoods?



Adamantium
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05 Aug 2015, 10:57 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
These are the groups who statistically commit most of the crimes. So, why wouldn't you have your police focus on them? Isn't that what a thinking person would do ?

Groups don't do anything, individuals do. The kind of groupthink that says individuals must be discriminated against because of statistics about their group may be acceptable in some other society but it is against the law in the United States.

I want the police to protect me from people who think that way.

Quote:
Look at Mr. Dubose, he was reportedly arrested seventy-five times. Seventy-five times.
False. He had been charged with 75 offenses, including multiple counts of driving with a suspended license. These charges are not synonymous with arrests or convictions. He had NO history of violent crime.

Quote:
Don't we want to keep people like Mr. Dubose out of our neighborhoods?
They are not your neighborhoods they are public spaces and it isn't up to you to determine which of your fellow citizens can move through public areas. I would love to keep people who think that way about their neighborhoods out of my town, region, nation and planet, but fortunately for many, I don't have dictatorial powers. Probably a good thing.



LoveNotHate
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05 Aug 2015, 11:50 am

Adamantium wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
These are the groups who statistically commit most of the crimes. So, why wouldn't you have your police focus on them? Isn't that what a thinking person would do ?

Groups don't do anything, individuals do. The kind of groupthink that says individuals must be discriminated against because of statistics about their group may be acceptable in some other society but it is against the law in the United States.

It's not against the law.

"Statistical discrimination is often used and tolerated, for example, when older people are charged more for life insurance, or when a college diploma is required for a job (because it is believed that college graduates perform, on average, better). Some well-documented instances of statistical discrimination for involuntary group membership also do exist and are tolerated".

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistic ... (economics)

And your argument misses the point, people use statistical discrimination to determine which individuals are likely to do something.

Only a fool disregards statistics, but fools can be lucky though.

Adamantium wrote:
Quote:
Look at Mr. Dubose, he was reportedly arrested seventy-five times. Seventy-five times.
False. He had been charged with 75 offenses, including multiple counts of driving with a suspended license. These charges are not synonymous with arrests or convictions. He had NO history of violent crime.

Yeah, but they resulted in convictions and jail time.

Heck, I read he had 2 pounds of drugs in his car in this latest stop. This guy sounds like a drug dealer, and someone who disrespects the law.

Not many people want a career criminal living near them.

Why are you defending a career criminal?

Adamantium wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Quote:
Don't we want to keep people like Mr. Dubose out of our neighborhoods?
They are not your neighborhoods they are public spaces and it isn't up to you to determine which of your fellow citizens can move through public areas. I would love to keep people who think that way about their neighborhoods out of my town, region, nation and planet, but fortunately for many, I don't have dictatorial powers. Probably a good thing.

It is up to the people to make this decision.

For example:

"In April 2010, Arizona enacted SB 1070, a law that would require law-enforcement officers to verify the citizenship of individuals they stop if they have reasonable suspicion that they may be in the United States illegally"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_pr ... na_SB_1070

These people decided what they did not non-citizens in those "public spaces". This was upheld by the United States Supreme Court.

Further, communities add all sorts of ordinances targeted towards groups.



Adamantium
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05 Aug 2015, 12:26 pm

Well isn't that nice.

Examples from insurance are irrelevant to a discussion of law enforcement.

Citizens of the United States are entitled to the rights set forth in the Constitution and its amendments, including the 14th.

Nothing more to say here but I both pity and deeply despise racists.



neilson_wheels
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05 Aug 2015, 12:42 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Only a fool disregards statistics, but fools can be lucky though.


This is a foolish statement in itself.

Statistics can be very easily manipulated to show whatever the presenter wants.

Maybe have a look here:

MISUSE OF STATISTICS