[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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TwilightPrincess
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21 Nov 2023, 8:13 pm

cyberdad wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
Given the slaughtering that's happening in Gaza right now, I wouldn't expect many Palestinian citizens to be especially fond of Israel at the moment, not that they were before due to ongoing oppression. (None of that excuses the terrorist attacks by any means.)


The problem is that the majority of those Palestinians surveyed on the west bank supported the "unprovoked" rape and murder of Israeli civilians on Oct 7 meaning its their retrospective view that terror against Jewish civilians is legitimate before the current conflict.

I imagine the views in Gaza would be worse. The specific thing that shocked the world on Oct 7 was the absolute brutality inflicted on civilians that came out of nowhere. I'm not a psychologist but to me that represents a very deep hatred
There are many potential contributing factors going on which I don't feel like enumerating because they may not all be entirely applicable (stuff like being ill-informed about the current conflict and the terrorist attacks). I don't believe in judging people based on a wartime survey. People are never at their most rational when they are struggling to survive. Human behavior and attitudes can typically be understood when they are taken in context, especially on a macro level. If Palestinians seem worse to you than the average person, it's probably because you (we) don't have all the facts or because personal bias is at work. People are people.

Yes, some are pro-Hamas due to indoctrination but that's not everyone. Almost half the population is made up of children, too. That can't be emphasized enough, I think.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 21 Nov 2023, 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Mona Pereth
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21 Nov 2023, 8:16 pm

cyberdad wrote:
The problem is that the majority of those Palestinians surveyed on the west bank supported the "unprovoked" rape and murder of Israeli civilians on Oct 7

One thing we don't know is how the attack was reported in their news media. I suspect that the attacks on Israeli civilians, and any other aspect of Hamas's behavior that could be seen as a war crime, may have been downplayed.

See also my post here, at the bottom of the previous page.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 21 Nov 2023, 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

TwilightPrincess
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21 Nov 2023, 8:18 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
The problem is that the majority of those Palestinians surveyed on the west bank supported the "unprovoked" rape and murder of Israeli civilians on Oct 7

One thing we don't know is how the attack was reported in their news media. I suspect that that aspect of the attack may have been downplayed.

That seems quite likely to me.



cyberdad
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21 Nov 2023, 8:41 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
If Palestinians seem worse to you than the average person, it's probably because you (we) don't have all the facts or because personal bias is at work. People are people.


I am trying to understand the reasons for the bad choices those leading the Palestinian community are making in choosing terror when (as you claim) the average Palestinian wants peace?



TwilightPrincess
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21 Nov 2023, 8:42 pm

Recidivist wrote:
Breaking News wrote:
Terrorists commit atrocities , Australian psychologist Dr C Dad postulates it stems from very deep hatred as opposed to deep hatred shown by the likes of Al Qaeda.

Also, it might be a topic better suited to PPR.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 21 Nov 2023, 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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21 Nov 2023, 8:44 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
The problem is that the majority of those Palestinians surveyed on the west bank supported the "unprovoked" rape and murder of Israeli civilians on Oct 7

One thing we don't know is how the attack was reported in their news media. I suspect that the attacks on Israeli civilians, and any other aspect of Hamas's behavior that could be seen as a war crime, may have been downplayed.


The fact the Palestinian authority are right now blaming Israel for the deaths of 1200 israeli citizens seems to indicate their people are being fed lies through the Arab language media. I'm not a journalist but I am yet to see a single Palestinian on camera show remorse over the Oct 7 attacks.



cyberdad
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21 Nov 2023, 8:46 pm

TwilightPrincess
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21 Nov 2023, 8:48 pm

It's probably hard to feel remorse for Israel when one's general vicinity is being turned to rubble and people are dying and facing/experiencing extreme suffering on a massive scale at this very moment. People can't focus on the plight of others amid such conditions.



cyberdad
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21 Nov 2023, 8:51 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
It's probably hard to feel remorse for Israel when one's general vicinity is being turned to rubble and people are dying and facing/experiencing extreme suffering on a massive scale at this very moment. People can't focus on the plight of others amid such conditions.


All I saw on Oct 7 from Palestinians was cheering in the streets (before the IDF retribution)



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21 Nov 2023, 8:56 pm

This is just one example
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_ ... as-attack/

A lot of young Palestinian women are posting tik tok videos saying they supported the Oct 7 attacks. One girl interviewed on BBC said she would be happy if HAMAS killed again, and again and again (her words). I hate to think what the men thought of the terror attacks of Oct 7th, I imagine it wouldnt be able to be published,

In Australia there is a growing call to arrest Palestinians who engage in chanting "gas the jews"



TwilightPrincess
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21 Nov 2023, 8:58 pm

cyberdad wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
It's probably hard to feel remorse for Israel when one's general vicinity is being turned to rubble and people are dying and facing/experiencing extreme suffering on a massive scale at this very moment. People can't focus on the plight of others amid such conditions.


All I saw on Oct 7 from Palestinians was cheering in the streets (before the IDF retribution)

It doesn't surprise me at all that that's all you saw.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 21 Nov 2023, 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

cyberdad
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21 Nov 2023, 9:03 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
It doesn't surprise me at all that that's all you saw.


But it wasn't just me



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21 Nov 2023, 9:14 pm

Nobody has posted anything from AL Quds. Here's a poll of Israelis (sorry not very recent).

https://www.alquds.com/en/posts/97311

Quote:
According to the poll, 65% support a broad invasion of Gaza and 51% support a broad military operation against Hezbollah, and 80% demand that Netanyahu bear responsibility for the political and security failures, while his popularity and the popularity of his coalition decline significantly.



65% of citizens in Israel supported launching a large-scale ground military operation in the Gaza Strip, while 21% opposed it, and 14% said that they had no opinion about that, according to a poll published by the newspaper “Maariv” today, Friday, and showed that there was no difference in positions between Likud party voters and Yesh Atid party voters.

Also, 51% called for a broad military operation against Hezbollah in Lebanon under the pretext of responding to the firing of missiles towards northern Israel, and 30% supported launching a local military operation against Hezbollah.



A large majority, 80%, believed that the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, should bear responsibility for the security and political failures that led to the Hamas movement’s success in launching a large, sudden attack in southern Israel on October 7th.



69% of Likud voters said that Netanyahu should announce that he bears responsibility for these failures. This comes after ministers, security and military officials announced that they bear responsibility for this failure, while Netanyahu has so far refrained from doing so.



The decline in Netanyahu's popularity continued this week, and it was found that 28% prefer that Netanyahu assume the position of prime minister, while 49% said that they prefer that the head of the "National Camp" bloc, Benny Gantz, assume this position.



The poll also showed that the popularity of the current coalition parties is still declining, and that if elections were held for the Knesset now, the coalition parties would have won 43 seats, even though they are represented today by 64 seats. Opposition parties will obtain 77 seats in new elections, or 68 seats without the Arab parties.



65% said they were optimistic about Israel's future, while 25% said they were pessimistic about its future. The percentage of optimists decreases and the percentage of pessimists increases among secular Jews.



Source: Arab 48


FWIW I agree with Israelis who blame the success of the invasion on Netanyahu.


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21 Nov 2023, 9:20 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
People can't focus on the plight of others amid such conditions.


Really? these are tik tok girls though. Young Arab women with large numbers of followers.Off topic but when there was a huge ruckus over Netflix's Cleopatra, instead of attacking Netflix over historical inaccuracies, a lot of the younger women/girls in Egypt attacked the actress who played Cleopatra. It turned out Egyptian women thought it was an insult to be associated with blackness.

In a round about way young Palestinians are of a similar ilk, even if they don't support HAMAS (as you and others claim) they celebrated the Oct 7 attacks as some type of karma for a lot of pent up rage. I think there is a cultural element here that supersedes western sensibilities much like the way crowds in Rome expressed pent up rage when going to the colosseum.

Trying to put Palestinians views through the lens of western morals and ethics seems like a waste of time, Perhaps this might be one of the reasons conflicts in the middle east go on and on and on. The root causes are never addressed.



TwilightPrincess
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21 Nov 2023, 9:49 pm

I was referring to the recent poll.

It seems like a waste of time to pigeonhole people with evidence gleaned from Tik Tok and personal observation, though. None of this matters. No matter what Palestinians currently think about Israel (etc.), the atrocities that are occurring in Gaza aren't okay.

We've already demonstrated through various polls that not everyone supports Hamas or the terrorist attacks.

Quote:
Trying to put Palestinians views through the lens of western morals and ethics seems like a waste of time
It's a good thing people aren't doing that then.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 22 Nov 2023, 2:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Dox47
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21 Nov 2023, 11:41 pm

cyberdad wrote:
I'm not a journalist but I am yet to see a single Palestinian on camera show remorse over the Oct 7 attacks.


Yeah, me too, and I subscribe to a lot of left wing newsletters that are highly sympathetic to the Palestinian cause. I recognize that it's an emotional reaction, but seeing them celebrate and cheer at the atrocities really saps me of any sympathy I may have had for them.


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