What are the odds of this being another William Freund?

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I tried to edit some errors and the flaming part out earlier, but it didn't take for some reason.
I only brought up guns in this thread because Ante made some uninformed comments about purchasing them and it relates directly to something that he seems to be suggesting to add in the terms of service rather than a discussion focusing on local gun laws.

Even if you could get all that information, do you think we could actually change a person's mind if they are set on killing themselves and others? He had more issues than we may have known about. He apparently was dangerous. Who says an individual might not turn around and try to harm those that they supposedly want to help with if they feel threatened by the means they are trying to go about helping them? That would be my biggest concern.

Also the thing of it being extremely difficult to contact the authorities based on an user that may not have given their 'real' name based only on their location if that's even provided. I think the best anyone could do is simply point the person in the direction of where they might get help in their area, past that you could seriously end up in a sticky situation due to the fact that none of us are professionals and really shouldn't be doing anything other than providing links, emails, phone numbers or addresses to get help from. Unfortunately if people are coming to get help on the internet if they are suicidal, they may not always truly want the help, they may just want attention as well. I'd simply suggest putting up a thread with resources that can help others but getting involved in a situation where you have very little details and wrong advice potentially given could cause serious problems.

Oh well, at least the moderators understand the limits of WP's responsibility and right to disseminate personal information to external parties. With people like Robert and Ante who refuse to respect privacy, who I doubt would ever follow a Privacy and Confidentiality contract, if implemented, WrongPlanet should discourage divulgement of any personal details on any of the forums. WP should be actively promoting anonymity of its members. Pay heed to what incognito said. It is within the realms of possibility that it may be another autistic lying dead with Will, instead of 2 of his neighbours.
Personally, I would have thought that the above beliefs of Ante and Robert would contravene most people's sense of justice. Goes to show how guilt and fear can drive people to disrespect the rights of other people, to make them feel better. I'd have thought us, with our strict sense of justice free of such foibles, but alas, we are as human as everybody.

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Last edited by Ante on 09 Nov 2005, 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

We must remember that we need to balance of the rights of individuals to the rights of society. That is what it is all about. Especially in the in this IMFORMATION AGE THAT WE LIVE IN.

While I've tried to point out that you cannot forcefully try and help someone, due to all sorts of reasons, I don't believe that you are incapable of helping others. You can, of course, just try and do your best to befriend and be a support for them; in the end, that's all that this community is about. The thing about being autistic, is that some of us have real problems accepting people. I know I do. Even if I can accept them, it is difficult to build any connection with them. I have many 'friends', I like them a lot and we have fun, but there is no connection there. Luckily, they are friends with my brothers, who they do have a connection with, so occasionally, when both my connection to my brothers and my brothers' connections with those people are both active, it acts as a connection between me and those people. But online, on the internet, such connections are impossible to form, so direct connections must be formed, if possible. Will had a connection with Kate, he could have utilized that connection, but he didn't. And its noone's fault. Its noone's fault that they have problems making connections or accepting people for who they are. In all likelihood, such people are as much in need of your making connections, as Will was.

Can a virtual community/friends be a substitute? Sure it can, its just harder to develop true connections to those people, and perhaps even more so for us, harder to utilize. But its just like the speech medium; if you develop the skills in developing/utilizing connections with people over the internet, it can help. Really, that is the only way we can help. Learn to make connections, utilize them, and help the people you feel are in trouble, to utilize that connection themselves.

Hi guys. When Alex showed me this thead a few days ago, I didn't know what to think. I didn't know this guy at all, but I ended up reading all your posts and all the things he had posted in the past. I couldn't help but feel a little bit responsible, as a few of you have.

Of course, it's difficult to ever justify what Will Freund did, but in some sense or another, many of us have been in his place. I know I have. Sometimes you just get so sick of people and so lost and disillusioned that you don't know what to do. Hopefully when that happens, there are resources -- and it sounds like there may have arguably been some for him. Hopefully people can understand you. Of course, he seemed to be kind of a gun nut....and he dealt with his problems in a fatally different way. But if a few parameters in his life had been different....who knows? And if a few parameters were different at critical parts in other peoples lives, who knows how <em>they</em> would end up? Of course, though, it's difficult to say a lot without being too presuming.

And I don't want to beat my own political drum here, but in some ways, this is a grotesque epitome of what can happen when society doesn't know how to deal with certain people -- I'm trying to treat this delicately. In some ways, I see the situation improving -- the actual diagnosis and "treatment" of Asperger's is relatively new. People are still trying to figure it out and make it effective. But on the other hand, I really fear the kind of "witchhunt" that came after events like Columbine, where kids were expelled/suspended from schools for things like trenchcoats or D&D or being 'antisocial'. I'm afraid in some ways of the direction society is moving in, but we'll have to wait and see, won't we?

Agh. I don't know what to make of this. I wish I could say that Asperger's has absolutely nothing to do with any of this, but more and more it seems to be a part of the picture.

When I spoke with the LA Times tonight, the reporter gave me his word he'd try to get it right. I was afraid the site or people with Asperger's might be mischaracterized by coverage like this, as many of you are. I'll wait to see the spin tomorrow.

The issues that we discuss (or flame sometimes) over are important ones affecting us as a group, but they are often glazed over in any discussion outside the group. I wish I could share with the world the kind of important problems there are with us. I want to communicate, persuade, etc, to prevent s**t like this happening if ever possible. I've been thinking of ideas...still not sure.

This weekend, I've been invited to speak on a panel about autism after a couple of autism-themed independent films. I want to try to carry my agenda, but not be all in-your-face about it and try to be as honest and relevant in my discussion as possible.

Like all of us here, I am truly saddened by this weekends news.
This boy seemed to have been in trouble for some time.

I would like to see a clear policy from the moderators about how they would like everyone to handle potential suicide threats.
Here is my proposal.
All suicide threats should be taken seriously, and reported to the moderators immediately.
Moderators should then contact the individual posting the threat directly and ascertain all pertinent information. If the person does commit suicide, then the moderators should attempt to turn over all information collected to the proper authorities. If the moderators find that the threat was made in jest, then the individual should be placed on warning for the first offense. All subsequent offenses should be met with suspension for a set period of time. If the moderators suspect that the threat is real, then all due hast should be taken to help the person get the help they need.

We should try to create a list of emergency contacts like the suicide hot line numbers for each area. I know that some of our members even have mental health backgrounds and might be willing to serve as emergency contacts. We should post the emergency contact list as a link on the website.

We should never again allow an individual to continually post suicide related information in our forums or in our chat rooms while sitting by and doing nothing.

Sometimes, some aspies are in desperate need of help, we all need to take responsability to try to help them as best we can.

When action is needed, blame is worse then useless.

Good thinking.

See, this is where I think you're shooting yourselves in the foot. If he's already dead, already killed himself, what point handing over his posts of intent, or that he had autism etc? You only end up giving Aspergers a bad name. He's dead, it only matters that he is dead and that he killed himself. What do you solve by pointing out all the problems he had? Nothing. You don't help the situation by pointing out that he's been thinking of killing himself for a while, that we failed to help. Everyone who knew him, obviously, failed to help, or he wouldn't have done it. People don't need to know all the nitty-gritty details. If you want to help, help the person by all means; try to talk them out of it, be a friend, give them hotlines, or a shoulder to cry on. But all these ideas of telling the authorities, talking to the media about how being AS might have influenced his decision, these things are muddying the water; not only that, you are hurting EVERY OTHER PERSON WHO HAS AUTISM BY STIGMATIZING IT. Look at the so-called witches or practitioners of dark magic from the dark ages. They generally associated it with being a woman, and so they persecuted them for it.
Even the best of good intentions, can be hurtful. This is an exact situation in which your good intentions, aren't the best thing to do. Worst of all, these good intentions are driven by your guilt; they aren't good intentions for their own sake, you're trying to allay the guilt you feel. Instead of saying yeah, he had Aspergers, as if its a reason why he killed himself, you should be trying to show that Aspergers is NOT why he killed himself, not helping people stigmatize it.
For god's sake, throw off your blindfolds and see what you are doing.

I understand the concern, and I'm afraid of the same thing, which is why I was hesitant to speak. I did make the basic point you're making clear -- this isn't something characteristic of Aspergers anymore than anything else.

I don't see how I'm stigmatizing it at all in my actual actions themselves. If you want to say that any mention of the two together is automatically stigmatizing autism regardless of the actual facts and reality of the situation go ahead (and you might actually have a point if that's what you're saying, to tell the truth). But I'm not so convinced that's the case.

I think autism is a relevant issue in this story, just not in a black and white "AUTISM MADE ME DO IT!" kind of way. Again, I don't think the way this is being discussed in any way is shooting the cause in the foot, but perhaps the way it's subsequently treated might.

We'll have to see how it pans out

I do not call the integrity of the reporter into question. Neither do I call the journalistic integrity of the LA Times into question either. What I do question though, is what will happen when the national Tabloid type "Media for F--ktards" get ahold of the story and blow it, as well as AS completely out of proportion.

Excuse me for playing the demagogue on this issue, but the chances of this happening are very real.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, watch one of the trashy "infotainment" shows on Fox, WB,UPN, or between the Nightly News and Prime Time TV on your local station. To me, it seems that the people who allow their opinions to be shaped from this type of dreck seem to be the majority.

Yes Nuttdan, I don't mean to say that it will happen, just that there's a chance, nay, a probability, that it will get taken in such a way, by people who have that view. Look at DAN!. They take a person who they believe is 'cured' from autism, and hold it up as a light that they are right. Look at Ante's post, hoping that this incident will convince people that AS is a mental illness. Many people have that view, and by pointing it out, you are giving them ammunition. Even though you may trust the reporter, you can't trust the people that read it. Whatever light it is given in, people will infer their own meanings from it. You're taking a risk, that can have farspread influences, if it doesn't pay off. A risk that concerns all of us. Do you really think a single individual has that right? One decision, poorly made, can entirely screw what we work for: that we aren't some illness or disease that needs to be abolished. Have you heard of the Chaos Theory insofar as weather systems? That the slightest change can affect global weather. A butterfly's wings beating in Australia, causing a storm in India. Its the same deal. You might not think it big, but it can have farspread influences that you don't anticipate or intend.
Sure, your decision to talk is made with good intentions, but good intentions means sweet FA in the effects that that decision causes.

I agree with Danlo.

I think it's quite naive to trust the media to get anything right. Journalists are not interested in truths, only stories. They will present the story in a way that fits the available space on the page and in a way that makes it connect with their readers prevalent mentality.

Even if they're trying to get it right, accuracy is not their strong point. I was featured in a newspaper article once (won't bore you with details) and halfway through the article they started referring to my wife by my sister-in-law's name, and she wasn't even part of the story!
If your average journalist can't even get a persons name right, what chance have they got of getting the details right in a complex story like this one? Let alone present it in a way that won't re-enforce negative stereotypes about autism.

Maybe I'm wrong and this journalist from the LA Times is better than all that. At least I hope I'm wrong.

However, that said, it may be better to approach the press and try and encourage a neutral report, rather than wait from them to find out later and report it from the "gut", as has been done. I say that in the sense of offering some balance to my opinon, but I'm not sure I believe it.

Still, it won't be the first time that Asperger's has been presented negatively by the press, just do a search on Google or the BBC News website and you'll see plently of stories of aspies causing havoc, sometimes murdering people. Not once will you see the media seperate the Asperger's from the crime itself. Each and every one implies or states the two are connected.
I hope that this causes no more damage to our community than previous incidents. Who knows at this point?

Here it is, the latest LA Times article:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-shooting1nov01,0,5728150.story?coll=la-home-headlines

To be fair, it isn't all bad. I'm not sure I like this though:

Doesn't that imply that violent behaviour could be assoiciated with Asperger's?

It's actually quite a good article though, although I think most people will just come away from reading that with associating Aspies with weird, suicidal types and may or may not be murderous.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you saying violent behavior "couldn't" be associated with aspies?