[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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07 Dec 2023, 7:41 am

MaxE wrote:

Traditionally, most Americans familiar with the situation have had pro-Zionist views insofar as not feeling hostile to the State of Israel or Israelis and not being actively opposed to the notion of a Jewish state. Most of those people are neither Jewish nor Evangelical. Things may have shifted recently, but I don't support the implication that any American who supports Israel belongs to one of those two groups.

To clarify: There are plenty of Americans who are sympathetic to Israel but don't belong to one of those two groups.

However, it seems to me that those Americans who are strongly pro-Israel enough to join or give money to a pro-Israel organization, or to vote for political candidates based largely on their stance toward Israel, are almost exclusively either Jews or evangelical Christians.

Many more Americans are sympathetic to Israel than belong to the organized Zionist movement. The latter, as far as I can tell, does consist almost entirely of Jews plus evangelical Christians, of whom the latter are far more numerous, giving the organized Zionist movement much more clout than it would have if it consisted of just Jews.

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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 07 Dec 2023, 8:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

Jakki
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07 Dec 2023, 8:12 am

Fricken Land grab..under the guise of an allowed HAMAS attack ...The Gaza area is prime real estate . For Israel.
Near a coastal region. allows others Palestinians the ability to have a life that might include fresh seafood..
If you deny a race of people whom had learned to use the water/ sea/ ocean to help survive. You directly contribute to the destruction of that Race ..? Most possibly . A long term version of genocide. ? But Israel has its own part of the Gaza strip.. Which it probably directly serves the wealthiest of the Israeli property developers ... More Gaza strip .. more money ..! .(Think of Coastal Property values anywhere). Human life has obviously become a secondary issue . Cooperation must of become a casuality
of Politics,As has life apparently . So please give me , a good reason as to why human life ,has become a secondary issue in all Politics it seems . Using old greivances as an excuse to gain financially,Something seems amiss to me ? :roll: . . . . Individual people need to be held to account for inciting these situations. IMHO .....If all these countries have such superior Intelligence agencies,
Why don't they act on behalf of Humanity and demonstrate some Intelligence. And address the people whom actually incite these activities .

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07 Dec 2023, 8:21 am

cyberdad wrote:

(I am not talking about past attacks by the IDF on Palestinian terroritories)

Perhaps you should - it might help rebalance your myopic view.

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07 Dec 2023, 11:31 am

Freed Palestinian Prisoners Say They Faced Torture and Rape in Israeli Jails

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07 Dec 2023, 11:47 am

funeralxempire wrote:

Freed Palestinian Prisoners Say They Faced Torture and Rape in Israeli Jails

That's almost any prison anywhere on the planet, though.

Not saying it's right, just saying it is what it is and doesn't sound from the quick little news blurb that it's any different from almost any prison anywhere.

Sexual assaults are pretty rampant in prisons. I've heard of them locally. Apparently it's something that just sort of "comes with the territory," and if people have the ability to put a stop to it, they do.. but it's so common that people are essentially just like "Whatever, it happens," and basically don't even bother reporting it because ~nothing will change/improve and they might be targeted even worse when it's the guards allowing or facilitating it.

It's one of many reasons to avoid going to jail. Because that tends to be a part of your punishment.

I bet it's happening on both sides over there, as it likely has in Most war prisoner situations forever and a day. Some things never change and I doubt there will ever be any specific punishments for things like this Unless they are caught on film and broadcast to the world, then maybe that particular perpetrator might be made an example of for getting caught on video. Otherwise my assumption is that nothing will happen or change, just like doesn't happen or change with rapes in regular prisons as f****d up as that is, too.

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07 Dec 2023, 12:54 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

Many more Americans are sympathetic to Israel than belong to the organized Zionist movement. The latter, as far as I can tell, does consist almost entirely of Jews plus evangelical Christians, of whom the latter are far more numerous, giving the organized Zionist movement much more clout than it would have if it consisted of just Jews.

Yes I would basically only expect either a Jew or somebody with very close ties to the Jewish community to join such an organization. Equivalent organizations exist for other groups e.g. Sikhs. Possibly a problem is that those people tend to be hard core. They truly don't tolerate criticism of Israel and Netanyahu, and support the more extremist settlers in the occupied territories. They are more extreme than the average Israeli.

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07 Dec 2023, 7:15 pm

Cornflake wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

(I am not talking about past attacks by the IDF on Palestinian terroritories)

Perhaps you should - it might help rebalance your myopic view.

I am not disputing israel's/IDFs past actions in Palestinian territories breaching international human rights. However I continue to maintain that there is no point going back in history as Israel is dealing with an immediate problem with HAMAS (it seems I am the only one left who is keeping on topic).

I was hoping that the ceasefire was maintained but quite clearly Israel's resolve is to remove HAMAS altogether from Gaza.

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07 Dec 2023, 7:22 pm

cyberdad wrote:

However I continue to maintain that there is no point going back in history as Israel is dealing with an immediate problem with HAMAS (it seems I am the only one left who is keeping on topic).

This seems like an admission you're unconcerned with the context and only wish to cheerlead for Israel's retaliation.

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07 Dec 2023, 7:35 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

This seems like an admission you're unconcerned with the context and only wish to cheerlead for Israel's retaliation.

I'll admit (and have admitted) being a supporter of Israel's right to exist. This puts me at odds with some elements of the PLO in the past and the current HAMAS doctrine to wipe Israel of the map. Israel does (therefore) have the right to defend itself.

Where I diverge is the use of force in Gaza putting civilians at risk. However, there are specific logistic problems the IDF had to deal with. Even if they chose to negotiate or bargain to swap prisoners for hostages, HAMAS were launching attacks into Israel which was designed to provoke the IDF to retaliate. So it's not a matter of "cheerleading", I just recognise that Israel did not have a choice (something I have repeated). The ground offensive on the other hand to destroy HAMAS was not something I support because it unnecessarily puts civilians in peril and probably increases the risk the hostages will end up getting shot or worse.

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08 Dec 2023, 12:15 am

MaxE wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

Yes I would basically only expect either a Jew or somebody with very close ties to the Jewish community to join such an organization.

But most evangelical Christian Zionists don't have close ties to the Jewish community. And they are generally not motivated by any particular fondness for Jews as people, but are, in many cases, motivated mainly by the ways that Israel fits into their beliefs about end-times prophecies.

MaxE wrote:

Equivalent organizations exist for other groups e.g. Sikhs.

As far as I am aware, there is no massive organization of members of some non-Sikh religion supporting Sikh nationalism.

No other nationalist movement that I know of has a large outsider-based allied organization analogous to Christians United for Israel, which has "over 10 million members," according to Wikipedia. That's more than the total number of Jews in the United States, which is about eight million. So it is certainly much larger than any of the Zionist Jewish organizations.

MaxE wrote:

Possibly a problem is that those people tend to be hard core. They truly don't tolerate criticism of Israel and Netanyahu, and support the more extremist settlers in the occupied territories. They are more extreme than the average Israeli.

Yep, that's a problem.

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08 Dec 2023, 4:54 am

Agrees with the above Postings by Mona ........very possibly a better description of How those groups in numbers could be having or contributing to these same effects .

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08 Dec 2023, 6:01 am

cyberdad wrote:

Cornflake wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

(I am not talking about past attacks by the IDF on Palestinian terroritories)

Perhaps you should - it might help rebalance your myopic view.

I am not disputing israel's/IDFs past actions in Palestinian territories breaching international human rights.

Phew - for a while back there it seemed you were treating events as occurring in a vacuum. /sarc

Still, Israel and the IDF are only "breaching international human rights" (and legislation) so I guess that somehow justifies the huge number of civilian deaths, a large proportion of them children.

Quote:

I was hoping that the ceasefire was maintained but quite clearly Israel's resolve is to remove HAMAS Palestinians altogether from Gaza.

There, fixed that for you. :wink:

Let's add in the West Bank too.

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08 Dec 2023, 7:27 am

Cornflake wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Cornflake wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

(I am not talking about past attacks by the IDF on Palestinian terroritories)

Perhaps you should - it might help rebalance your myopic view.

I am not disputing israel's/IDFs past actions in Palestinian territories breaching international human rights.

Quote:

I was hoping that the ceasefire was maintained but quite clearly Israel's resolve is to remove HAMAS Palestinians altogether from Gaza.

There, fixed that for you. :wink:

Let's add in the West Bank too.

Err, I'm still not convinced that all Palestinians will leave Gaza or be expelled, but sure. While I wouldn't deny that humanitarian situation in Gaza is dire, I am not convinced that the civilians are the prime targets. The West Bank is a different story, Netanyahu's government has been continuously expanding settlements in the West Bank for years prior to the October 7 attacks but I don't think he's likely survive politically after the war is over.

But sure, those past transgressions by Israel totally justify the mass rape of women and beheading of children, right?

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08 Dec 2023, 7:35 am

funeralxempire wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

When you do due diligence it will no surprise at the complete barbarity of the HAMAS terrorists (as shocking as it was) but what is more concerning is how radicalised the rest of the Palestinian population is?

Given what Israel has put them through, it's not shocking in the slightest. You'd feel the same way if you were in their shoes.

Yes, I guess that mass rape of Israeli civilians is totally justified. :roll:

I could post the images of what happened here, but that would be against the rules.

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08 Dec 2023, 8:56 am

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08 Dec 2023, 10:00 am

Jono wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Given what Israel has put them through, it's not shocking in the slightest. You'd feel the same way if you were in their shoes.

Yes, I guess that mass rape of Israeli civilians is totally justified. :roll:

I could post the images of what happened here, but that would be against the rules.

No one said that the rapes were justified and no one here is denying that they happened.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 08 Dec 2023, 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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