[IMPORTANT] Hamas launches foot assault against settlements.

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cyberdad
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10 Dec 2023, 6:13 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

Israeli official calls for burying alive 'subhuman' Palestinian civilians

He clearly should be thrown out of office but....does this mayor's attitude reflect the wider Israeli population?

What happened to not make generalisations out of a :few bad apples":??

TwilightPrincess
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10 Dec 2023, 6:20 pm

Who is making generalizations here about Israelis? How is posting a news report making a generalization?

No one is saying that horrifying behavior committed by officials or the IDF reflects the Israeli population as a whole, just like the Palestinian population does not equal Hamas.

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10 Dec 2023, 6:27 pm

This ^

cyberdad wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Israeli official calls for burying alive 'subhuman' Palestinian civilians

He clearly should be thrown out of office but....does this mayor's attitude reflect the wider Israeli population?

Careful now - your ulterior motive is showing. :wink:

Quote:

What happened to not make generalisations out of a :few bad apples":??

What generalizations?
It's a news article about what one man said, and what that one man said is disgusting enough to require no generalization.

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goldfish21
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10 Dec 2023, 6:28 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:

Who is making generalizations here? How is posting a news report making a generalization?

No one is saying that horrifying behavior committed by officials or the IDF reflects the Israeli population as a whole, just like the Palestinian population does not equal Hamas.

While true, all people of a nation suffer the consequences of their leadership. Israel, Gaza, USA.. you think if the orange guy becomes dictator that the world is gonna say "SOME Americans completely screwed the world over electing that clown-fraud again," ? No. The entire world is going to s**t on Americans for collectively making such a stupid decision that affects the entire planet due to the USA's superpower status.

Same same here. No one is going to learn the individual names of decision makers and blame only them. Bad acts committed by Israel will be Israel's reputation. Bad acts committed by those in power in Gaza will be theirs. Maybe not fair to any neutral/opposed civilians, but it is what it is: Israelis vs. Palestinians.

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cyberdad
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10 Dec 2023, 6:28 pm

The mayor is a nutjob so his words should be treated in isolation like a crazy dude spouting nonsense on the subway.

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10 Dec 2023, 6:30 pm

But that "crazy dude spouting nonsense on the subway" doesn't hold a position of power and responsibility, does he?

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cyberdad
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10 Dec 2023, 6:40 pm

Cornflake wrote:

But that "crazy dude spouting nonsense on the subway" doesn't hold a position of power and responsibility, does he?

That's why the mayor should be relieved of his duties

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10 Dec 2023, 6:53 pm

goldfish21 wrote:

TwilightPrincess wrote:

I never said that citizens don’t suffer for the behavior of their leadership. It’s a sad reality of life.

Most on here realize that a nation’s leadership is not the same as their citizenship. It’s not just about what the world at large thinks. The world at large doesn’t need to abide by WP rules and guidelines. On a personal note, I won’t remember most individual names after the conflict is over, but I will remember Hamas and the IDF.

Healthy discussion and research can go a long way in reducing errant thinking and prejudice.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 10 Dec 2023, 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

goldfish21
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10 Dec 2023, 7:01 pm

Uuuh, you do you I guess.

Either IDF did it or Hamas did it. That's about as far as I, and MOST people on the planet, are going to research the intricacies of this conflict.

FWIW both sides are being idiots and doing stupid things - which makes it hard to care about whatever they're all doing over there 1/2 a world away.. they've both given away the fact that they're idiots doing stupid things, so, whatever.. keep it between yourselves and quit bothering everyone else with your bs.

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10 Dec 2023, 7:04 pm

goldfish21 wrote:

Either IDF did it or Hamas did it.

It sounds like a false dilemma.

Most people aren’t going to be interested enough to put time into appropriate research. Of course, most people aren’t involved in news discussions on WP.

Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 10 Dec 2023, 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ASPartOfMe
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10 Dec 2023, 7:13 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

What would be enough retaliation to make Israelis comfortable about returning to both the northern and southern half of Israel?

Maybe Israel just needs to build more apartment buildings in whatever parts of the country Israelis are relatively comfortable living in currently, and then the population can gradually expand back into the more vulnerable (hence cheaper) areas again when things calm down.

Maybe the Iron Dome and other military defenses need to be expanded too. And maybe Israel needs to start taking reports from its spies more seriously, e.g. if Hamas is observed practicing any given military maneuver, however merely "aspirational" it may seem, IDF needs to practice counter-maneuvers too.

But a messed-up Israeli real estate market is not a valid excuse to slaughter thousands of civilians, or to bomb huge numbers of apartment buildings, in Gaza.

This post was not about the real estate market. It is about would Israelis and thus the people who govern them accept that 30 percent or whatever their country is uninhabitable because of terrorism. This is why I think once Gaza is secured they will to try to destroy Hezbollah, then Iran. That is why I am surprised Hezbollah has not gone to total war while a lot of the IDF is occupying Gaza.

I would be shocked if any hint of hostile action is not taken seriously for a long time. Remember how jumpy and paranoid we were after 9/11.

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funeralxempire
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10 Dec 2023, 7:44 pm

cyberdad wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

Israeli official calls for burying alive 'subhuman' Palestinian civilians

He clearly should be thrown out of office but....does this mayor's attitude reflect the wider Israeli population?

What happened to not make generalisations out of a :few bad apples":??

Will Israelis move to censure him in anyway? Will he face repercussions of any sort? If he doesn't that would suggest that he isn't a crazy nutjob but instead well within the Overton window.

You often like to focus on how much Palestinian hate for Israel drives the conflict and forces Israel's hand, but seem to overlook that a significant number of Israelis are just as filled with hate towards Palestinians and it's the combination of their hatred and vastly superior ability to perpetrate violence while facing far less repercussions that ultimately drives the entire conflict.

It's like Mike Tyson getting in a bar fight with me and complaining that I punched him in the balls at some point mid-way during the one-sided beating which included multiple shots to my groin, which he addresses by claiming I made every effort to avoid striking the antagonist attacker's groin but I had ensure his capacity to engage in further antagonistic actions was thoroughly eliminated.

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cyberdad
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10 Dec 2023, 7:57 pm

funeralxempire wrote:

You often like to focus on how much Palestinian hate for Israel drives the conflict and forces Israel's hand, but seem to overlook that a significant number of Israelis are just as filled with hate towards Palestinians and it's the combination of their hatred and vastly superior ability to perpetrate violence while facing far less repercussions that ultimately drives the entire conflict.

I don't dispute there elements of the Israeli police or army or politics who carry these barbaric sentiments. Have you noticed that in the US too the police have bad apples who shoot/kill people of a certain group and that there are politicians who spout nonsense about borders and migrants. It would seem the conservatives in America are permitted to carry a "broad church" of views.

But shoe on the other foot. If we are permitted to explore if wider population of Jews carry these anti-Palestinian views then why is it wrong to ask the same question about whether wider Palestinian population also carry anti-Jewish views?

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10 Dec 2023, 9:31 pm

cyberdad wrote:

funeralxempire wrote:

It isn't wrong to ask.

It's wrong to frame the issue in such a way that the far superior force is treated like they're innocent victims regardless of what they've done and seek to do.

Yes, the individuals killed in the Oct 7th attacks are victims, but that doesn't make Israel, or it's government and military innocent. The Israeli state is the aggressor and will continue to behave that way as long as some sort of right-wing coalition holds power, which isn't to suggest a left-wing government will resolve the issue or make Israel suddenly blameless.

As long as Israel actively seeks to undermine a two-state solution by interfering with Palestinian statehood, they're the aggressor. As long as Israel illegally builds settlements on Palestinian land, they're the aggressor. Until they cease to be the aggressor it will be hard to have any sympathy towards the Israeli state, even if individual Israelis certainly deserve it.

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11 Dec 2023, 6:18 am

Someone silly ,,dometime aho .. i believe, made claims about "History Repeating itself" . but maybe not so
exactly coincidental.????.

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11 Dec 2023, 7:12 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Mona Pereth wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

What would be enough retaliation to make Israelis comfortable about returning to both the northern and southern half of Israel?

Because it's not an independent entity, Iran has the last word.

Quote:

This is why I think once Gaza is secured they will to try to destroy Hezbollah, then Iran.

That's the most likely scenario, minus Iran.

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