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funeralxempire
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13 Dec 2023, 5:30 pm



The Canadian government found it's sense of decency and finally did the right thing. 8O


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funeralxempire
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13 Dec 2023, 6:03 pm



Israeli Ambassador’s Mask Off Moment


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13 Dec 2023, 6:35 pm

funeralxempire wrote:


Israeli Ambassador’s Mask Off Moment

That is what I have been trying to say. It is not just the government but most of the Israel public since the Second Intifada. From what I have read and listened to a two state solution is viewed as something that could only happen in perfect world, at least for the foreseeable future.

Netanyahu makes for a good boogie man but once he is gone the basic policy and attitude won't change. Netanyahu is one of the more Americanized Israeli leaders and arguably more susceptible to western public opinion.


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13 Dec 2023, 7:24 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Netanyahu is one of the more Americanized Israeli leaders and arguably more susceptible to western public opinion.


I remember he used to be the poster boy of Israeli-American relations once up on a time.



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13 Dec 2023, 7:26 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
From what I have read and listened to a two state solution is viewed as something that could only happen in perfect world.


I'm not so sure? surely the Israeli civilian population would prefer a separate state for safety/security.



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13 Dec 2023, 8:19 pm

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
From what I have read and listened to a two state solution is viewed as something that could only happen in perfect world.


I'm not so sure? surely the Israeli civilian population would prefer a separate state for safety/security.


They seem happy with slow walking genocide, so long as the people being harmed don't fight back. Whenever they fight back we're expected to pretend like it was unprovoked. :roll:


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funeralxempire
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13 Dec 2023, 8:27 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
That is what I have been trying to say. It is not just the government but most of the Israel public since the Second Intifada. From what I have read and listened to a two state solution is viewed as something that could only happen in perfect world, at least for the foreseeable future.

Netanyahu makes for a good boogie man but once he is gone the basic policy and attitude won't change. Netanyahu is one of the more Americanized Israeli leaders and arguably more susceptible to western public opinion.


I agree with you and that's why I don't like over-fixation on Bibi.

If Bibi were eliminated tonight the policies wouldn't change, at least not favourably.

The Israeli right is revanchist, ethno-nationalist and often theocratic as well. They are without redeeming qualities and ought to be treated just as harshly as the Muslim Brotherhood or other Islamist groups. They openly seek to both exterminate the Palestinian people as well as to expand Israeli territory beyond what's currently Israel and Palestine.

The west should have supported Palestinian statehood more aggressively before the rise of Hamas.


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14 Dec 2023, 12:35 am

funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
That is what I have been trying to say. It is not just the government but most of the Israel public since the Second Intifada. From what I have read and listened to a two state solution is viewed as something that could only happen in perfect world, at least for the foreseeable future.

Netanyahu makes for a good boogie man but once he is gone the basic policy and attitude won't change. Netanyahu is one of the more Americanized Israeli leaders and arguably more susceptible to western public opinion.


I agree with you and that's why I don't like over-fixation on Bibi.

If Bibi were eliminated tonight the policies wouldn't change, at least not favourably.

The Israeli right is revanchist, ethno-nationalist and often theocratic as well. They are without redeeming qualities and ought to be treated just as harshly as the Muslim Brotherhood or other Islamist groups. They openly seek to both exterminate the Palestinian people as well as to expand Israeli territory beyond what's currently Israel and Palestine.

The west should have supported Palestinian statehood more aggressively before the rise of Hamas.

I would not fixate on the right either. Assuming a more centrist government takes over(there is no significant left) things like judicial reform would not go through, it would be less hostile to LGBTQ etc. but attitudes towards the Palestinians would not change. As far as the settlers go while non right Israel does not like them butvbecause Jews are such a minority in this world with a persecution history people would be loathe to do anything that would result in a civil war. Also The divisions within Israel prior to 10/7 has been blamed for 10/7.

The one remaining old time lefty part of Israel was the area that Hamas invaded. They put their money where their mouth was they lobbied successfully to have workers from Gaza brought in. Their optimism aligned with Bibi’s cynical plan to prop up Hamas. What they apparently got was those workers doing the intelligence legwork for Hamas.

If the Gaza envelope is now deemed uninhabitable with any hint of Hamas presence what does that make the north with Hezbollah, and the entire country with Iran?

Israel has reacted with virtue signal and some real concessions to outside pressure. Post 10/7 even with a centrist government I do not know what if anything it would take. We are going to find out. America could really cripple Israel if it wanted to but in the short to medium term I don’t see that. A lot of the rest of the world is probably going punish them if not cut them off entirely and that would hurt significantly but it would viewed inside Israel as here we go again, the world hates Jews what else is new?


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funeralxempire
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14 Dec 2023, 1:35 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
That is what I have been trying to say. It is not just the government but most of the Israel public since the Second Intifada. From what I have read and listened to a two state solution is viewed as something that could only happen in perfect world, at least for the foreseeable future.

Netanyahu makes for a good boogie man but once he is gone the basic policy and attitude won't change. Netanyahu is one of the more Americanized Israeli leaders and arguably more susceptible to western public opinion.


I agree with you and that's why I don't like over-fixation on Bibi.

If Bibi were eliminated tonight the policies wouldn't change, at least not favourably.

The Israeli right is revanchist, ethno-nationalist and often theocratic as well. They are without redeeming qualities and ought to be treated just as harshly as the Muslim Brotherhood or other Islamist groups. They openly seek to both exterminate the Palestinian people as well as to expand Israeli territory beyond what's currently Israel and Palestine.

The west should have supported Palestinian statehood more aggressively before the rise of Hamas.

I would not fixate on the right either. Assuming a more centrist government takes over(there is no significant left) things like judicial reform would not go through, it would be less hostile to LGBTQ etc. but attitudes towards the Palestinians would not change. As far as the settlers go while non right Israel does not like them butvbecause Jews are such a minority in this world with a persecution history people would be loathe to do anything that would result in a civil war. Also The divisions within Israel prior to 10/7 has been blamed for 10/7.

The one remaining old time lefty part of Israel was the area that Hamas invaded. They put their money where their mouth was they lobbied successfully to have workers from Gaza brought in. Their optimism aligned with Bibi’s cynical plan to prop up Hamas. What they apparently got was those workers doing the intelligence legwork for Hamas.

If the Gaza envelope is now deemed uninhabitable with any hint of Hamas presence what does that make the north with Hezbollah, and the entire country with Iran?

Israel has reacted with virtue signal and some real concessions to outside pressure. Post 10/7 even with a centrist government I do not know what if anything it would take. We are going to find out. America could really cripple Israel if it wanted to but in the short to medium term I don’t see that. A lot of the rest of the world is probably going punish them if not cut them off entirely and that would hurt significantly but it would viewed inside Israel as here we go again, the world hates Jews what else is new?


It's frustrating that the mindset seems to be to dismiss the criticism as antisemitism rather than horror over Israel's actions because it seems impossible to engage with once that defence mechanism is deployed.


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14 Dec 2023, 3:23 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:


Israeli Ambassador’s Mask Off Moment

That is what I have been trying to say. It is not just the government but most of the Israel public since the Second Intifada. From what I have read and listened to a two state solution is viewed as something that could only happen in perfect world, at least for the foreseeable future.

Netanyahu makes for a good boogie man but once he is gone the basic policy and attitude won't change. Netanyahu is one of the more Americanized Israeli leaders and arguably more susceptible to western public opinion.


My understanding is that most Israeli's support a two state solution if it were achievable but are pessimistic about it's prospects. While the Second Intifada happened because some Palestinians rejected a two state solution, we must remember that the far right in Israel were also partly responsible for the failure of the Oslo accords (Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli far right extremist).

However, even if another uprising happens due to a new peace process after the war, I don't think it's even possible for it to be as deadly as the Second Intifada was because the West Bank barrier has made it virtually impossible for anyone to carry out suicide attacks in Israel proper, like what happened then. The only reason why the West Bank is even still a problem now is because of the continuation of the Israeli settlements. Also, I would of thought that getting rid of Hamas would also be getting rid of one of the biggest obstacles obstacles to the two state solution on the Palestinian side (they were the main Palestinian group who opposed the Oslo accords). Besides, if there's no prospect for a two state solution, I'd like to know what the alternative is. Nobody wants a one state solution either (which I don't believe is a workable solution anyway), so the only option left is to have only an Israel or a Palestine, which means that either one of the two must be deleted. I don't want to see a complete ethnic cleansing of Palestinians or an eradication of the state of Israel.



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14 Dec 2023, 8:39 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
That is what I have been trying to say. It is not just the government but most of the Israel public since the Second Intifada. From what I have read and listened to a two state solution is viewed as something that could only happen in perfect world, at least for the foreseeable future.

Netanyahu makes for a good boogie man but once he is gone the basic policy and attitude won't change. Netanyahu is one of the more Americanized Israeli leaders and arguably more susceptible to western public opinion.


I agree with you and that's why I don't like over-fixation on Bibi.

If Bibi were eliminated tonight the policies wouldn't change, at least not favourably.

The Israeli right is revanchist, ethno-nationalist and often theocratic as well. They are without redeeming qualities and ought to be treated just as harshly as the Muslim Brotherhood or other Islamist groups. They openly seek to both exterminate the Palestinian people as well as to expand Israeli territory beyond what's currently Israel and Palestine.

The west should have supported Palestinian statehood more aggressively before the rise of Hamas.

I would not fixate on the right either. Assuming a more centrist government takes over(there is no significant left) things like judicial reform would not go through, it would be less hostile to LGBTQ etc. but attitudes towards the Palestinians would not change. As far as the settlers go while non right Israel does not like them butvbecause Jews are such a minority in this world with a persecution history people would be loathe to do anything that would result in a civil war. Also The divisions within Israel prior to 10/7 has been blamed for 10/7.

The one remaining old time lefty part of Israel was the area that Hamas invaded. They put their money where their mouth was they lobbied successfully to have workers from Gaza brought in. Their optimism aligned with Bibi’s cynical plan to prop up Hamas. What they apparently got was those workers doing the intelligence legwork for Hamas.

If the Gaza envelope is now deemed uninhabitable with any hint of Hamas presence what does that make the north with Hezbollah, and the entire country with Iran?

Israel has reacted with virtue signal and some real concessions to outside pressure. Post 10/7 even with a centrist government I do not know what if anything it would take. We are going to find out. America could really cripple Israel if it wanted to but in the short to medium term I don’t see that. A lot of the rest of the world is probably going punish them if not cut them off entirely and that would hurt significantly but it would viewed inside Israel as here we go again, the world hates Jews what else is new?


The end of this Post about the World hating Jews...(((just Sickens me ...))) and NOT for the reason you might think.
Have run into time and again this psychotic self persecution mentality of jews worldwide . If you disagree with one in the USA ,who is out there about their Jewishness on any topic ? unless it is openly PRO- Jewish , you are instantly branded amongst their family , their friends , their temple ..As being an Anti Semite ..and potentially aligned with NAZIs ...have been victimized by this thinking once before when trying to help out a anti disease Organization.
Regarding including everyone in the Research for a particular disease . It is just sickening . You do not see Armenians ...being out there about their genocide,or the Uygurs ...And making imaginary claims about self percieved offenses / persecuetions against them as a group . If you disagree with just one of them ( on any topic).
They do not deserve a leading role in the world as victims....And if they left people alone . And behaved themselves overall . They might not be in the self persecuetion role they have devised for themselves in all society .
But I am only talking from my self experience ! Nobody i know hates Jews .(They dont care! )
Except perhaps they have self - hate media propaganda that has become ,as how they identify . And have built up a inter- national identity around it . :skull:


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14 Dec 2023, 10:43 am

It is more then a defense mechanism or self persecution complex. The in vogue phrase for it is generational trauma. It is pretty much true that wherever the Jews went they were persecuted sometimes immediately and sometimes after a period where they were accepted. It is human nature to assume what has happened repeatedly is happening or will happen again.

As far as the Armenian genocide is concerned except for those involved most did not know about it for decades. It is only because Armenians did not shut up about it that we know about

Jono wrote:
My understanding is that most Israeli's support a two state solution if it were achievable but are pessimistic about it's prospects.

I agree. That was what I was trying to convey with my earlier “in a perfect world” comment. “From River to Sea” even in its most non nefarious interpretation is about a one state solution.


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funeralxempire
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14 Dec 2023, 2:09 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
It is more then a defense mechanism or self persecution complex. The in vogue phrase for it is generational trauma. It is pretty much true that wherever the Jews went they were persecuted sometimes immediately and sometimes after a period where they were accepted. It is human nature to assume what has happened repeatedly is happening or will happen again.


I would argue it's both, inter-generational trauma is the cause, but the expression is as a persecution complex that serves as a defence mechanism.

It's difficult to know what is an appropriate reaction to a violent, irrational actor because even if force is justified, it doesn't mean it will deliver positive results. Boycotts, divestment and sanctions are all justified, but probably won't be enough to do much.

As long as Israelis perceive themselves as the victims rather than the antagonists it's going to be impossible to apply any real pressure outside of use of force, but use of force will only make things worse, make them more recalcitrant.

I'd argue a UN peacekeeping force might help reduce tensions, but I'd worry about Israel attacking them, resulting in a use of force against the Israeli state that only further reinforces their persecution complex.


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14 Dec 2023, 2:34 pm


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14 Dec 2023, 3:29 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
The Canadian government found it's sense of decency and finally did the right thing. 8O

Canada also does not have a super-powerful Christian Zionist movement, or a powerful religious right wing movement more generally, like we have here in the U.S.A.


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14 Dec 2023, 9:55 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The one remaining old time lefty part of Israel was the area that Hamas invaded. They put their money where their mouth was they lobbied successfully to have workers from Gaza brought in.

This is an aspect of the situation I was unaware of.

So not only did Hamas attack a whole lot of Israeli civilians, but they attacked, primarily, some of the very few Israelis who had any sympathy whatsoever for Palestinians, thereby making any longterm solution even harder to achieve?

If so, that further adds to the horror of the Hamas attack, in my opinion.

But I'm still horrified by Israel's response too.


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