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The Israeli Flotilla incident

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Michael_Stuart
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02 Jun 2010, 2:35 pm

Marcia wrote:
ASPowerations wrote:
What are people's thoughts on this one? I'm having trouble finding a discussion about it that's not filled with raving lunatics on both sides. Said raving lunatics, in choosing to be more emotional than rational, obviously forfeit their right to be taken seriously.


Perhaps you are having trouble finding and participating in a discussion about this because you seem to find it difficult to accept that there might be more than simply the Israeli perspective on this, never mind the idea that what Israel has done is tantamount to an act of war or state-sponsored terrorism. Israeli military boarded a Turkish ship, in international waters and then shot at those on board, killing 9 and injuring many more. It is hardly surprising that those on board attempted to defend themselves.


The ships were told that the Gaza area was off-limits, and that Israel supports delivery of humanitarian aid. They were offered passage into Ashdod where they would be able to deliver the goods over land, under their own oversight. To me, this sounds like a very reasonable offer. Israel isn't stupid, they're not going to let a ship which could be carrying weapons bring them to their enemy.

As the ship refused, the Israelis attempted to board. Before they had even boarded, the people on the ship threw things at them, including an explosive, and proceeded to attack them with chains and metal rods. Israeli self-defense fire was regrettable but hardly unprovoked. They DECLINED an opportunity to have their supplies delivered, the supposed purpose of their mission. And then, they violently attacked the Israelis and were surprised when they fought back. It's not the people on board that were doing the defending.


(On a completely unrelated note, is anyone reminded of the Battlestar Galactica episode with a similar plot?)



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02 Jun 2010, 5:17 pm

Israel has a right to "defend itself".

"You throw rocks at me then I will shoot you dead and then bulldoze your house and kill your family"

What could be fairer than that?



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02 Jun 2010, 6:54 pm

that's not how war works

you don't meet force with equal force

maybe less civilians would die if Hamas didn't use them as human shields



decoder
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02 Jun 2010, 7:54 pm

Here people are furious about the incident. The islamists always hated Israel. But now many mild people are against Israel as well. Personally I think the aid convoy idea was BS. Turkey and other participating states share the guilt of the dead with Israel.



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02 Jun 2010, 8:25 pm

Wombat wrote:
Israel has a right to "defend itself".

"You throw rocks at me then I will shoot you dead and then bulldoze your house and kill your family"

What could be fairer than that?


If thine enemy smite thee on thy cheek, decapitate him and excrete down his severed neck. Do that often enough and people will stop smiting thee on thy cheek.

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02 Jun 2010, 10:20 pm

ASPowerations wrote:
What are people's thoughts on this one? I'm having trouble finding a discussion about it that's not filled with raving lunatics on both sides. Said raving lunatics, in choosing to be more emotional than rational, obviously forfeit their right to be taken seriously.


I tend to agree with you. It frustrates me to no end. I thought that Rami Shapiro offered a more balanced perspective on his blog:

http://rabbirami.blogspot.com/2010/06/m ... -boat.html



ASPowerations
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02 Jun 2010, 10:49 pm

Marcia wrote:
ASPowerations wrote:
What are people's thoughts on this one? I'm having trouble finding a discussion about it that's not filled with raving lunatics on both sides. Said raving lunatics, in choosing to be more emotional than rational, obviously forfeit their right to be taken seriously.


Perhaps you are having trouble finding and participating in a discussion about this because you seem to find it difficult to accept that there might be more than simply the Israeli perspective on this, never mind the idea that what Israel has done is tantamount to an act of war or state-sponsored terrorism. Israeli military boarded a Turkish ship, in international waters and then shot at those on board, killing 9 and injuring many more. It is hardly surprising that those on board attempted to defend themselves.


I specifically said "raving lunatics on both sides." My personal feelings on which side is right in this particular case doesn't change that. Sure, a few of the people on this forum are a little batty, but this is one of the few forums I've seen where people from around the world can gather to discuss the issue and no one says anything too irrational. I also noticed here that a number of people are centrist enough to criticize both sides.


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03 Jun 2010, 5:13 am

ASPowerations wrote:
I also noticed here that a number of people are centrist enough to criticize both sides.


I've written three replies to this thread, and held off posting any of them. ^^


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04 Jun 2010, 4:29 am

ASPowerations wrote:
Wombat wrote:
Back in 1948 the United Nations declared that part of Palestine was to be a Jewish homeland even though most of the land was owned by Palestinians.

Since that time the Israelis (Jews) have taken more and more of the land outside their original boundaries. This continues today with their "settlements".

So here is the question:

If Israel claims that ALL the land is part of Israel then everyone in the country should be given equal rights, equal votes and equal protection.


In 2005, Israel officially withdrew from Gaza. The only Israelis who claim that it is part of Israel are a few ultra-religious nut jobs who claim that the land is inherently Jewish land, given to the Jews by G-d, regardless of who is actually living there, blah, blah, blah. We can ignore those ultra-religious nut jobs.

Wombat wrote:
If Gaza is a separate country (Palestine) then what gives Israel the right to bomb it, blockade it and starve the people?

Either way there is a major injustice being done to the original people who once owned ALL the land.


This statement of yours does quite a bit to call the legitimacy of your opinions into question.

1. When Israel bombed Gaza, it targeted militants and military targets. This includes people's homes if they are storing weapons in their homes.

2. The blockade which Israel has placed is to prevent weapons being smuggled into the region. This seems like the least harmful method of preventing rocket fire.

3. Israel is not starving the people of Gaza. The Hamas government, meanwhile, has imposed a tyrannical rule over its citizens.

4. Worst of all, you call into question Israel's military actions in Gaza, but you do not call into question similar, unprovoked actions an the part of Hamas. It should be noted that Hamas, when they fire rockets, target civilians.

By condemning only the smaller of the two human rights violations, you show that you are not using logic, but emotions, to make your decisions. This renders your opinions worthless.


You forgot the o in God. HA HA!! !! !! !! !!



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04 Jun 2010, 11:10 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
ASPowerations wrote:
Wombat wrote:
Back in 1948 the United Nations declared that part of Palestine was to be a Jewish homeland even though most of the land was owned by Palestinians.

Since that time the Israelis (Jews) have taken more and more of the land outside their original boundaries. This continues today with their "settlements".

So here is the question:

If Israel claims that ALL the land is part of Israel then everyone in the country should be given equal rights, equal votes and equal protection.


In 2005, Israel officially withdrew from Gaza. The only Israelis who claim that it is part of Israel are a few ultra-religious nut jobs who claim that the land is inherently Jewish land, given to the Jews by G-d, regardless of who is actually living there, blah, blah, blah. We can ignore those ultra-religious nut jobs.

Wombat wrote:
If Gaza is a separate country (Palestine) then what gives Israel the right to bomb it, blockade it and starve the people?

Either way there is a major injustice being done to the original people who once owned ALL the land.


This statement of yours does quite a bit to call the legitimacy of your opinions into question.

1. When Israel bombed Gaza, it targeted militants and military targets. This includes people's homes if they are storing weapons in their homes.

2. The blockade which Israel has placed is to prevent weapons being smuggled into the region. This seems like the least harmful method of preventing rocket fire.

3. Israel is not starving the people of Gaza. The Hamas government, meanwhile, has imposed a tyrannical rule over its citizens.

4. Worst of all, you call into question Israel's military actions in Gaza, but you do not call into question similar, unprovoked actions an the part of Hamas. It should be noted that Hamas, when they fire rockets, target civilians.

By condemning only the smaller of the two human rights violations, you show that you are not using logic, but emotions, to make your decisions. This renders your opinions worthless.


You forgot the o in God. HA HA!! !! !! !! !!


O, G-d topic

Certain religious people do not speak or write out the name of The Almighty. This custom of writing God as G-d is permitted. It is not a spelling error. 8)


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04 Jun 2010, 1:07 pm

Shadwell wrote:
Israel is out of its mind.


Why, then, does Egypt also blockade Gaza? Why has not Jordan permitted Palestinians to return to the Hashemite Kingdom (let's be clear, there is a Palestinian homeland, it's called Jordan!)

This is not a simple "Us vs. Them" fight between the Israeli government and the Palestinian population within the old British Mandate. Arabs within Israel can vote, be elected to the Knesset, serve in the Cabinet, the public service and the military, and enjoy the full range of civil liberties.

But until the Palestinian Authority can get its house in order, and demonstrate the capacity to establish governance and stability to the territories under their authority, factionalism will continue to be a threat to Israel, to Egypt and, most importantly, to Palestine itself.

The activists have achieved their martyrdom, in the face of an Israeli offer that would have allowed them to effect their stated purpose of delivering aid. While many of Israel's actions (such as their encroachment on the West Bank) are rightly decried, let's not exempt the pro-Palestinian lobby from criticism when they engage in hypocrisy.


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04 Jun 2010, 1:22 pm

True the Arab states are more than complicit as well as the Palestinian leadership, although Turkey seems genuinely ticked. It's not just an Israel thing, its a power thing, and a US thing. But seriously, attacking a bunch of civil rights activists on the high seas is f*****g crazy, they want to be feared. Israel actually has nukes.



Shadwell
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04 Jun 2010, 1:29 pm

Also there are those in Israel who would love to disenfranchise Palestinian Israeli's, make them swear loyalty oaths, deport them to the occupied territories. The Jordan thing might have worked had Israel not been hungry for land and water resources and swiped the West Bank in the seven day war. Its not an even handed issue either, Israel by far uses disproportionate violence when compared to the Palestinians.



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04 Jun 2010, 1:34 pm

There has certainly been instances of Palestinian terrorism which I do not condone, but as I said before Gandhi style tactics are used by a sizable portion of free-Palestinian activists. The right to defend yourself belongs to all occupied people under international law not just Israel which as Noam Chomsky notes forgoes the option to defend itself through readily available peaceful means: ending the occupation and share water resources.



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04 Jun 2010, 4:58 pm

sartresue wrote:
O, G-d topic

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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Kraichgauer
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04 Jun 2010, 5:13 pm

sartresue wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ASPowerations wrote:
Wombat wrote:
Back in 1948 the United Nations declared that part of Palestine was to be a Jewish homeland even though most of the land was owned by Palestinians.

Since that time the Israelis (Jews) have taken more and more of the land outside their original boundaries. This continues today with their "settlements".

So here is the question:

If Israel claims that ALL the land is part of Israel then everyone in the country should be given equal rights, equal votes and equal protection.


In 2005, Israel officially withdrew from Gaza. The only Israelis who claim that it is part of Israel are a few ultra-religious nut jobs who claim that the land is inherently Jewish land, given to the Jews by G-d, regardless of who is actually living there, blah, blah, blah. We can ignore those ultra-religious nut jobs.

Wombat wrote:
If Gaza is a separate country (Palestine) then what gives Israel the right to bomb it, blockade it and starve the people?

Either way there is a major injustice being done to the original people who once owned ALL the land.


This statement of yours does quite a bit to call the legitimacy of your opinions into question.

1. When Israel bombed Gaza, it targeted militants and military targets. This includes people's homes if they are storing weapons in their homes.

2. The blockade which Israel has placed is to prevent weapons being smuggled into the region. This seems like the least harmful method of preventing rocket fire.

3. Israel is not starving the people of Gaza. The Hamas government, meanwhile, has imposed a tyrannical rule over its citizens.

4. Worst of all, you call into question Israel's military actions in Gaza, but you do not call into question similar, unprovoked actions an the part of Hamas. It should be noted that Hamas, when they fire rockets, target civilians.

By condemning only the smaller of the two human rights violations, you show that you are not using logic, but emotions, to make your decisions. This renders your opinions worthless.


You forgot the o in God. HA HA!! !! !! !! !!


O, G-d topic

Certain religious people do not speak or write out the name of The Almighty. This custom of writing God as G-d is permitted. It is not a spelling error. 8)


I know. I WAS KIDDING!! !! !! !!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer