Medical ethicist suggests killing disabled & unwanted ba

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Keyman
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02 Mar 2012, 10:41 am

The question is if her academic position may influence policy makers.



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02 Mar 2012, 11:17 am

No, of course it it won't. One person, with something so clearly outrageous?
Like I said earlier: what do you think we are in the UK - Nazi Germany?

Her "position" is referred to in various places in the article as:
former Oxford academic
Philosopher and medical ethicist
an academic with links to Oxford University
a research associate at Oxford


Amongst the hysterics in the article is this:

Quote:
As the hate calls came in, Dr Minerva she had not been expecting the overwhelmingly negative reaction.
She said she believes her argument was taken out of its academic and theoretical context, and that 'I wish I could explain to people it is not a policy - and I'm not suggesting that and I'm not encouraging that'.
so it's not even what she's asking for but by now the typical Daily Mail reader is foaming at the mouth with rage and knows only that she must be burned at the stake...

In short: the article is sensationalist crap.
Nothing to see here.


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Marcia
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02 Mar 2012, 8:06 pm

I read the article as it appeared in the British Medical Journal as a friend posted a link on Facebook.

I read it as a critique of the ease with which abortions can be obtained. Abortions which are not related to the pregnancy as such, but rather the circumstances which the birth of the child would place the mother and wider family in. That is why the author deliberately rejects the use of the word infanticide, and why the option of adoption is considered and rejected.

The author is examining the ethical arguments used to support abortion at present, and logically extending those same arguments to apply to live births.

This is an article which should be making people think about the ethics of abortion.



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03 Mar 2012, 12:01 am

jojobean wrote:
I am in the US. Georgia to be exact,

My friend is a nurse and she said there is a such thing in the US as a "slow code" which is basicly medically killing someone. This was happening to my dad, my nurse friend pointed it out, and he was then transfered to a different hospital. But they were giving him super high doses of morphine which has sulfur in it. My dad was very allergic to sulfur and was in his allergy chart...his kidneys were shutting down. It was not until we found out that morphine has sulfur in it, and called them on it that they took him off of it and his kidney function returned to normal. He died anyway when MRSA infection took over his lungs. Strangely none of it was on his skin, where it normally manifests first before going internally. The only way it could have been only in his lungs was if it was in his breathing equiptment which he was on because of COPD. I dont consider this to be an accident. His doctors decided he was to die. I cant prove it was intentional...but in my gut, I know it was.

The same doctor that slow coded my dad was reported in the paper to have given hugely illegal doses of insulin to a diabetic patient before she woke up from surgery. The nurses tried to stop him, but he fought them and injected her. She coded moments later and went into a diabetic coma for 4 months. I refer to him as Dr. Death...somebody locally is protecting him cuz no matter what he does to whom...he does not get punished.

My nurse friend also told me that she overheard doctors saying that a sick post menopausal woman no longer has a use to society and there is no point in wasting effort trying to save her. You dont have to worry about Obamacare wiping out granny, they have been doing that for some time on their own. I guess if you are female and cant push out a sh*tload of babies then you are of no use and should die.

I do know that medicine is very gender biased. My mom has a rare disease and she is part of a support group specific to that disease. It mostly occurs in women, but sometimes in men. The women in the group mostly go 10 years or more before a diagnosis and are mostly treated like head cases, even though this disease can be life threatening. However the men usually get top of the line care and are diagnosed in less than 2 years and are in alot better health than the women, who even after diagnosed, are still treated like they are somewhat pscho-somatic. The difference in care between the males and females in the group is glaring. The ones who suffer the worst mistreatment and lack of proper care are women who had hysterectomies or are post menopausal.

I hate it when doctors play god, but from what I seen...it is best to eat healthy and try to take care of yourself to avoid being at the mercy of the US medical system.


Jojo


I knew the South was backwards and that proves it. I wonder how many whites emigrated to South Africa, after it became illegal to be a racist in the United States. I wonder if the doctor is a child or grandchild of a German, as Nazi German doctors enjoyed killing people. If you want to punish that doctor, there's an old saying that describes how to get punishment in this situation, "if you want it done right, do it yourself." Just don't leave any evidence or witnesses if you decide to do it yourself.


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03 Mar 2012, 12:47 am

jojobean wrote:
[...]
Jojo

Thanks for posting that. I just googled "slow code" and got a ton of hits -- it looks like that's a common thing in American hospitals. Sheesh.

That reminds me some of a story I heard from a doctor. When she was in medical school she came down with Lyme disease. At that time the only antibiotics for it for were intravenous and it required weeks of getting infusions, so she had lots of needle marks on her arms. Because of that she had a bracelet and card explaining the situation, because she knew that if she were brought unconscious from a car accident or something into an ER, the doctors/nurses/others would assume that she was a drug addict and would put her at the end of the line for being worked on.

You'd think the medical people would at least verify their assumptions if those assumptions are going to have have life-or-death consequences. (But maybe they'd argue there's no time.) Still, overall, as far as playing God, yeah they apparently do, and some of them at least, in the biased ways one would hope they wouldn't.



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03 Mar 2012, 2:20 am

I think that this is a perfect example of "shooting the messenger". As someone pointed out, Peter Singer has been saying this stuff for years.

If you find it repulsive, that's okay. I do too. But you should take it as a challenge: you need to explain why this is morally different from abortion. I have a few ideas, mostly revolving around the significance of an umbilical cord.



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03 Mar 2012, 2:50 am

Then they would have killed me or let me die thinking I was brain damaged, dark blue, I was resuscitated. Under this policy they wouldn't have but out of that so called brain injury came a very talented and gifted artist. I can reproduce famous paintings very exactly without education on first try among other things creatively. No one should have the right to play god.

It was probably medical malpractice that caused it in the first place.



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03 Mar 2012, 3:32 am

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
jojobean wrote:
[...]
Jojo

Thanks for posting that. I just googled "slow code" and got a ton of hits -- it looks like that's a common thing in American hospitals. Sheesh.

That reminds me some of a story I heard from a doctor. When she was in medical school she came down with Lyme disease. At that time the only antibiotics for it for were intravenous and it required weeks of getting infusions, so she had lots of needle marks on her arms. Because of that she had a bracelet and card explaining the situation, because she knew that if she were brought unconscious from a car accident or something into an ER, the doctors/nurses/others would assume that she was a drug addict and would put her at the end of the line for being worked on.

You'd think the medical people would at least verify their assumptions if those assumptions are going to have have life-or-death consequences. (But maybe they'd argue there's no time.) Still, overall, as far as playing God, yeah they apparently do, and some of them at least, in the biased ways one would hope they wouldn't.


That's disturbing as hell, but I already know of horrible things like that which happen so it's no surprise I guess.


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04 Mar 2012, 4:35 pm

It's not possible that her real position is actually anti abortion rather than pro infanticide?

And the authors certainly got the attention they were seeking: http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/201 ... -451456352



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04 Mar 2012, 5:46 pm

No idea what the intention of the article's author or the doctor's intentions really are, but this does bring to mind pro-life/anti-abortionist warnings from many years ago until today that this is where allowing abortion could lead.

Not that I have any interest in debating that issue. Doing so has never proven to be very productive in my experience.


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04 Mar 2012, 8:14 pm

The whole concept of eugenics in general just sounds terrible to me.



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04 Mar 2012, 11:55 pm

ChangelingGirl wrote:
I find this sickening. As someone brought up in a family that holds views similar to this ethicist's, I am majorly triggered.


What does your family think of you?



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05 Mar 2012, 12:38 am

One member of my family believes that anyone with an IQ under 130 should be fixed to where they cant reproduce. I have seen some people with high IQ's that would make terrible parents, including her. I have seen people mild MR be decent parents also. There is alot more to being inteligent than what IQ can measure.

As far as the slow code...ya its creepy and its been going on for a while.
good reason to eat healthy and exercise...to avoid being at the mercy of doctors

Yep, the south is backwards (dont get me started on that rant), but slow-coding is national. They teach them this in medical schools. However only one class of all their basic med school training is dedicated to nutrition, go figure.

Jojo


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05 Mar 2012, 12:46 am

Hum... that article made me think about abortion more than anything... stating that killing a newborn is just the same as doing it in the womb brings a strong case against abortion.

I don't feel like debating either, so I guess I'll stop here :?



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05 Mar 2012, 3:56 am

greengeek wrote:
jojobean wrote:
I am in the US. Georgia to be exact,

My friend is a nurse and she said there is a such thing in the US as a "slow code" which is basicly medically killing someone. This was happening to my dad, my nurse friend pointed it out, and he was then transfered to a different hospital. But they were giving him super high doses of morphine which has sulfur in it. My dad was very allergic to sulfur and was in his allergy chart...his kidneys were shutting down. It was not until we found out that morphine has sulfur in it, and called them on it that they took him off of it and his kidney function returned to normal. He died anyway when MRSA infection took over his lungs. Strangely none of it was on his skin, where it normally manifests first before going internally. The only way it could have been only in his lungs was if it was in his breathing equiptment which he was on because of COPD. I dont consider this to be an accident. His doctors decided he was to die. I cant prove it was intentional...but in my gut, I know it was.

The same doctor that slow coded my dad was reported in the paper to have given hugely illegal doses of insulin to a diabetic patient before she woke up from surgery. The nurses tried to stop him, but he fought them and injected her. She coded moments later and went into a diabetic coma for 4 months. I refer to him as Dr. Death...somebody locally is protecting him cuz no matter what he does to whom...he does not get punished.

My nurse friend also told me that she overheard doctors saying that a sick post menopausal woman no longer has a use to society and there is no point in wasting effort trying to save her. You dont have to worry about Obamacare wiping out granny, they have been doing that for some time on their own. I guess if you are female and cant push out a sh*tload of babies then you are of no use and should die.

I do know that medicine is very gender biased. My mom has a rare disease and she is part of a support group specific to that disease. It mostly occurs in women, but sometimes in men. The women in the group mostly go 10 years or more before a diagnosis and are mostly treated like head cases, even though this disease can be life threatening. However the men usually get top of the line care and are diagnosed in less than 2 years and are in alot better health than the women, who even after diagnosed, are still treated like they are somewhat pscho-somatic. The difference in care between the males and females in the group is glaring. The ones who suffer the worst mistreatment and lack of proper care are women who had hysterectomies or are post menopausal.

I hate it when doctors play god, but from what I seen...it is best to eat healthy and try to take care of yourself to avoid being at the mercy of the US medical system.


Jojo


I knew the South was backwards and that proves it. I wonder how many whites emigrated to South Africa, after it became illegal to be a racist in the United States. I wonder if the doctor is a child or grandchild of a German, as Nazi German doctors enjoyed killing people. If you want to punish that doctor, there's an old saying that describes how to get punishment in this situation, "if you want it done right, do it yourself." Just don't leave any evidence or witnesses if you decide to do it yourself.


Speaking as an American of German ancestry, I can tell you right now, being of German background does not make one a Nazi. Now, my people have been Americans for well over a hundred years, but by your reasoning, I'm liable to start pitchforking corpses into a gas furnace any time now.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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05 Mar 2012, 5:45 am

-Skeksis- wrote:
Wow... This is scary. I've been reading about how disabled people are being demonized in the UK. Now this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ead_module

One of the comments said there was a government order there for doctors to put a DNR in disabled and learning disabled children's files without the parents knowledge or consent. Is this true?


Dr. Minerva happens to be logically correct. However the making of laws is very rarely logical and the killing of born infants will remain legally prohibited for the foreseeable future. A newborn human infant does not have a sufficient number of neural connections to be a genuine person. However if permitted to live, that situation will change rapidly within a month. The growth of human neural tissue (post birth) is rip roaring. However a human infant is the property of the mother who bore it, and is legally protected against unjustified harm.

ruveynb