Man Self-immolates in National Mall
jrjones9933
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Thelibrarian
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Blabby, I certainly won't defend our health care system. But the problem is too much government rather than not enough. Costs are rising while incomes are stagnant or declining, and this has been the case for the last forty years. Right now, the federal government is paying medical schools not to train more doctors, thereby keeping the supply very limited, so they can charge exorbitant rates. Also, most drugs in the pharmacy, along with ordering medical tests, need to be made OTC.
Do these things, along with adopting sane economic policies that put Americans first in their own country, and the problems we are seeing will largely be gone.
but as long as the bigwigs are profiting handsomely from the present [pre-ACA] setup, nothing will change except by fiat.
Blabby, here is the US problem in a nutshell. Wages for working people have been stagnant or declining for the last forty years, and it is not completely coincidental that the unions have been greatly weakened during this time--at least most unions. The American Medical Association, which is nothing more than a professional union for doctors, has only grown stronger. So, while our wages have been stagnant or declining, the wages of doctors have gone up every year. Now it has gotten to the point where very few can still afford their services, but they are services we can't just decide to do without--at least when we need them.
Here is something for you to consider. Of the top ten most lucrative jobs in America:
http://www.askmen.com/top_10/entertainm ... -us_1.html
Please note how many of these are in the medical field, with doctors and surgeons doing better than anybody else. Again, this problem is not only easily rectified through government action, the ONLY way things will get better is when the reforms I recommended are made. If we can't afford our medical system voluntarily, we won't be able to afford it when the government puts guns to our heads demanding the money to pay for it. The problem is few do have it. That is what needs to change--what the Republican Party categorically refuses to recognize: It is impossible to do business with people who don't have money.
Thelibrarian
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Source?
I must say I'm impressed that you would ask for the facts before rushing to judgment. I always admire those who refuse to countenance prejudice in any form. Therefore, I offer the following document from MIT for your consideration. The first sentence says it all:
http://tech.mit.edu/V117/N33/glut.33w.html
GoonSquad
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Source?
I must say I'm impressed that you would ask for the facts before rushing to judgment. I always admire those who refuse to countenance prejudice in any form. Therefore, I offer the following document from MIT for your consideration. The first sentence says it all:
http://tech.mit.edu/V117/N33/glut.33w.html
The last sentences are pretty informative too. One problem with Americans is that few of us bother to read "the whole damn thing," We'd much rather jump to conclusions.
With more than 700,000 physicians, the United States has more doctors per capita than virtually any other country. In particular, it has a vast supply of specialists, who are starting to find themselves in less demand as more patients are insured through "managed care" plans that favor treatment by lower-cost medical generalists.
You know, you and I agree that we have serious problems in american health care. But the free market won't fix this. If you read the last two paragraphs I quote, you can see that the free market is the problem here. We don't need less government regulation. We need SMART government regulation.
This policy might not be correct, but it is not nearly as bad as you have made it out to be.
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Thelibrarian
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"The last sentences are pretty informative too. One problem with Americans is that few of us bother to read "the whole damn thing," We'd much rather jump to conclusions."
What conclusions have I jumped to? I am aware of the fact that the US has, or at least had, a lot of doctors. The reason why is socialized medicine in almost all developed countries (which keep wages artificially low--the opposite of the problem here. And as far as the rest of the world--the Third world, or undeveloped countries--they don't have as many doctors simply because they are--well--undeveloped.
You also must not have noticed the date. A lot has happened in the intervening sixteen years to doctor populations; in fact, just what this article has predicted. There is more current information on this abomination in CAGW's "Pig Book" on government waste if you are interested. I gave you this article because this is when the program started--under a Democrat president, although the Republicans are hardly any better.
Here is the problem: Fascist countries are about the state against foreign countries and despised minority groups. As with communism, liberalism--or either the right or left variety--is the state against its own citizens. Why? Money, at least in the case of liberalism. When doctors are scarce, they can command much hire wages, even if it hurts ordinary people. In politics, money doesn't just talk; it screams.
"You know, you and I agree that we have serious problems in american health care. But the free market won't fix this. If you read the last two paragraphs I quote, you can see that the free market is the problem here. We don't need less government regulation. We need SMART government regulation."
Most assuredly I am not an anarchist; I am an old-school, Southern conservative. So, while I am suspicious of government for the reasons I describe above, I also recognize that some governmental intrusion is necessary. With this in mind, let me ask what "SMART" government regulation you would propose?
Concerning the free market, as opposed to capitalism, has always been with us, and always will be. This is why the law of supply and demand is a law; it is immutable. Even Stalin had to relent on this one. Prior to WWII, he drove the free market deep underground, but could not kill it. His strategy for winning WWII was to leave consumer products to the free market economy, and war production to the state. Average Soviet consumers never had it better than at this brief respite from controlled markets, despite the ravages of the war. I would cite as a further example illegal drugs: They are the only drugs that have come down in price while increasing in potency in the last twenty years. This despite a massive governmental "war on drugs" that has cost astronomical amounts of money, and done incalculable damage to our freedoms.
As a brief digression, if you lean left, which I'm guessing you do, the free market in drugs is one of the best arguments against Republican economics that exists. Republican economics have always been biased toward the supply side, even before that term came in to vogue. The free market in illegal drugs proves the demand side economy is just as strong. In other words, some people are willing to risk life and liberty to supply drugs only because other people are willing to pay a lot of money for those drugs. It is demand-side economics.
I am not a worshiper of the free market the way right-liberal Republicans are. While it is very powerful, and for the most part good, it does have several flaws, namely that free market theory must assume that we are all rational actors, when the evidence is quite clear that isn't the case; and that we are all equally good at dealing with the market, when the evidence says that when average people compete against the likes of Bill Gates and Warren Buffet--or the AMA--the contest is just as unfair and unbalanced as putting a little old lady in the ring with a champion boxer. In other words, free markets are a good thing provided we recognize their innate flaws, and make provisions as necessary.
jrjones9933
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Another facet of the glut of medical school graduates is a worsening shortage of residency spots, which are required for doctors to complete their training.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapotheca ... t-control/
Thelibrarian
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/theapotheca ... t-control/
The shortage of doctors is actually a myth promoted to advance the interests of doctors, namely fewer numbers so they can command higher wages:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/hea ... tage_x.htm
GoonSquad
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^^^ Okay, just 2 or 3 points...
i looked for the date the first time, but could not find it.
I'd like to ask if you saw this bit?
Under the budget agreement, hospitals that downsize will not get extra money outright. But if they volunteer to reduce their residency programs by 20 percent or 25 percent over five years, Medicare will cushion the financial blow. For the first two years, it will pay the whole subsidy for the missing residents. After that, the payments will taper off for three years.
Apparently this program didn't/wasn't intended to go on for ever. If they are still discouraging the training of specialists, that's probably a bad idea, But, I still don't see anything wrong with the original policy...
Let me tell you a little story that helps to illustrate why free market medicine is not always a good thing.
I just got done having my second spinal surgery for the year. I live in a fairly large metro area (half a million people), but I still have to drive 2.5 hrs to see my (very good) neurosurgeon. That bit of info might support your idea that there are not enough specialists, but I don't think so.
More specialists might drive prices down, but like your article concludes, the specialists just order more tests or do more operations to make more work of themselves... That's the free market. Lower prices and make up the difference on volume.
I'm glad my neurosurgeon is very busy. When I went in for my surgery last week, I thought I was going to have to have all the bones in my neck fused. This procedure would have been VERY expensive and it would have left me VERY and permanently disabled.
However, when I went in to see the doc, he had some good news. He said that after reviewing my MRIs again with a radiologist he thought we could get away with just doing a simple laminectomy without fusion on C1 and leave the rest of the problems alone for the time being.
This option was much cheaper, and it leaves me much less disabled. If my surgeon was less busy and needed the money, he would not have been motivated to consider this option. He would have been motivated to do the much more expensive procedure. He would have been motivated to give me the most treatment' not the best treatment.
That's why I think free market medicine isn't such a good thing.
PS
I guess the point is, the free market is great at providing the cheapest and the most.
HOWEVER, when it comes to healthcare people do not want the cheapest and the most; they want the best.
It's going to take something besides the free market to deliver that...
_________________
No man is free who is not master of himself.~Epictetus
There is a shortage of psychiatrists,the mental health center I went to before had to fly them in from out of state,you never saw the same shrink twice.Some never even looked at you when they wrote script,you could have been slavering like a rabid dog,and they would not have noticed.Plus they all had different opinions on dosage and medications,a good way to get over medicated.The place I go to now is better,I've had the same Dr. for years,but he is stretched thin and drives all over the state.He may be retiring soon,bummer,because I like him and think he is very good.
_________________
I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi
Or the case of Mohamed Bouazizi, for that matter.
auntblabby
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at least with ACA as it is presently configured, I pay ZERO in monthly premiums for a comprehensive plan that I could not afford before, so that is some progress at least. these tax credits are available to anybody making between poverty level and about $48k a year, on a sliding scale. if you're single and making more than $48 k per year it is presumed that you are sufficiently financially well-off to where a health insurance premium won't be much more than 10% of your monthly income.
Man seen on fire on National Mall dies from injuries.
Source: CNN Article
What we know so far:
- Man self-immolates near famous museum on National Mall on Friday, Oct. 04, 2013
- Passers-by attempted to put out the flames
- His motive is unknown at this time
- His identity is unknown due to the extent of his injuries
- He died from his injuries mid-day Saturday, Oct. 05, 2013
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auntblabby
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Thelibrarian
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i looked for the date the first time, but could not find it.
I'd like to ask if you saw this bit?
Under the budget agreement, hospitals that downsize will not get extra money outright. But if they volunteer to reduce their residency programs by 20 percent or 25 percent over five years, Medicare will cushion the financial blow. For the first two years, it will pay the whole subsidy for the missing residents. After that, the payments will taper off for three years.
Apparently this program didn't/wasn't intended to go on for ever. If they are still discouraging the training of specialists, that's probably a bad idea, But, I still don't see anything wrong with the original policy...
Let me tell you a little story that helps to illustrate why free market medicine is not always a good thing.
I just got done having my second spinal surgery for the year. I live in a fairly large metro area (half a million people), but I still have to drive 2.5 hrs to see my (very good) neurosurgeon. That bit of info might support your idea that there are not enough specialists, but I don't think so.
More specialists might drive prices down, but like your article concludes, the specialists just order more tests or do more operations to make more work of themselves... That's the free market. Lower prices and make up the difference on volume.
I'm glad my neurosurgeon is very busy. When I went in for my surgery last week, I thought I was going to have to have all the bones in my neck fused. This procedure would have been VERY expensive and it would have left me VERY and permanently disabled.
However, when I went in to see the doc, he had some good news. He said that after reviewing my MRIs again with a radiologist he thought we could get away with just doing a simple laminectomy without fusion on C1 and leave the rest of the problems alone for the time being.
This option was much cheaper, and it leaves me much less disabled. If my surgeon was less busy and needed the money, he would not have been motivated to consider this option. He would have been motivated to do the much more expensive procedure. He would have been motivated to give me the most treatment' not the best treatment.
That's why I think free market medicine isn't such a good thing.
PS
I guess the point is, the free market is great at providing the cheapest and the most.
HOWEVER, when it comes to healthcare people do not want the cheapest and the most; they want the best.
It's going to take something besides the free market to deliver that...
Good Squad, I don't think what you describe has anything to do with the free market, but rather has everything to do with the integrity of doctors, which is sadly lacking. It is also the case that the doctors already order way too many tests, though insurance companies, as well as Medicare and Medicaid, have started curbing many of the worst abuses.
Nor is this a temporary program insofar as it is still going on. If you read the article from 2005 carefully, you noted that med schools receive a "subsidy" for teaching doctors. This "subsidy" works the same way as it does for farmers (I know, I'm in agriculture though I've never taken a dime from the government because they demand total control over the operation). The way this system works is if you take government money, the government tells you how many bushels of crops, or how many doctors you are able to produce.
Bottom line: When the price of yo yo's goes through the roof, you do without or switch over to hula hoops. There is no acceptable substitute for doctors; they have us between a rock and a hard place, and they know it.
Last edited by Thelibrarian on 05 Oct 2013, 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
auntblabby
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Thelibrarian
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at least with ACA as it is presently configured, I pay ZERO in monthly premiums for a comprehensive plan that I could not afford before, so that is some progress at least. these tax credits are available to anybody making between poverty level and about $48k a year, on a sliding scale. if you're single and making more than $48 k per year it is presumed that you are sufficiently financially well-off to where a health insurance premium won't be much more than 10% of your monthly income.
Blabby, it bears iteration and reiteration: I am NOT defending the current system. I also understand that you are paying nothing. But since there is no free lunch, somebody else is paying a lot more--and likely money they don't have to shell out. When you rob Peter to pay Paul, you have a friend in Paul and an implacable enemy in Peter. It is tearing this country apart. My position is that rather than put Americans at one another's throats, we reform the system.
Another problem with Obamacare is that it goes to illegals, which means that American taxpayers aren't just responsible for the healthcare of their fellow citizens, but anybody who cares to slither across our borders.
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