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eric76
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05 Jul 2014, 11:36 pm

Misslizard wrote:
It would be a really good idea to stop saturating everything in poison.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/pesti ... -1.2685492


Actually, pesticides are just one of many different possibilities for the bee deaths. Anyone who says categorically that it is one particular cause is either clairvoyant or a liar.



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05 Jul 2014, 11:44 pm

Still a good idea to stop the saturation,maybe not 100% related to bee deaths,but it is a contributing factor.
http://www.news24.com/Green/News/Pestic ... t-20140624


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eric76
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06 Jul 2014, 12:20 am

Misslizard wrote:
Still a good idea to stop the saturation,maybe not 100% related to bee deaths,but it is a contributing factor.
http://www.news24.com/Green/News/Pestic ... t-20140624
Are you clairvoyant?



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06 Jul 2014, 8:12 am

I knew you were going to say that. :D I never said it was one particular case,there are many factors.


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eric76
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06 Jul 2014, 10:01 am

I would agree that it might be a factor, but there is little reason to believe that it is much of a factor.

If the honey bee deaths were concentrated in certain areas where certain pesticides are more heavily used, then that would be more convincing. But the problem is reportedly found worldwide and not just in areas where the pesticides in question are used.

My understanding is that pesticides do not explain the phenomena, but disease and parasites seem to be much stronger candidates for the major causes.



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06 Jul 2014, 3:27 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Still a good idea to stop the saturation,maybe not 100% related to bee deaths,but it is a contributing factor.
http://www.news24.com/Green/News/Pestic ... t-20140624


Bah, I sprinkle pesticides on my cornflakes every morning, and I feel fine.


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eric76
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06 Jul 2014, 5:00 pm

If I remember correctly, these bee losses occur primarily in the winter time when pesticides are much less likely to be widely used.

I think that most modern pesticides have pretty short biological half lives -- by the time of the bee losses, there should be relatively little of the pesticides remaining in the environment.

If pesticides are a factor, it is surely a very minor factor.



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06 Jul 2014, 5:12 pm

The article on neonics said they remain active for longer.We kept bees before,it your colony is weak they don't make it thru the winter.The majority of bee keepers will ask orchard owners and farmers when they are going to spray and you can close the front opening in the hive,or spray on a cloudy day when bees are not as active.Some times they can get wax worms and there is a Verroa mite that also effects them.
The neonic insecticides have been banned in Europe because of honey bee deaths.
http://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/neo ... are-a-huge


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eric76
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06 Jul 2014, 7:53 pm

Misslizard wrote:
The article on neonics said they remain active for longer.We kept bees before,it your colony is weak they don't make it thru the winter.The majority of bee keepers will ask orchard owners and farmers when they are going to spray and you can close the front opening in the hive,or spray on a cloudy day when bees are not as active.Some times they can get wax worms and there is a Verroa mite that also effects them.
The neonic insecticides have been banned in Europe because of honey bee deaths.
http://www.eea.europa.eu/highlights/neo ... are-a-huge


If the article is correct, they were not banned because of being responsible for the honey bee deaths but as a precaution in case they are responsible for the honey bee deaths:
Quote:
?Based on the body of evidence, we can see that it is absolutely correct to take a precautionary approach and ban these chemicals,? EEA Executive Director Jacqueline McGlade said.


Note that we need to distinguish between what can kill honeybees on occasion and the problem of Colony Collapse Disorder (or something like that) which is the real problem.



eric76
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06 Jul 2014, 7:56 pm

From http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2014/02/05/bee-deaths-reversal-as-evidence-points-away-from-neonics-as-driver-pressure-builds-to-rethink-ban/:

Quote:
A split has developed in the research community as to the potential link of neonics to bee deaths. Just this past week, entomologists at a New Orleans conference released details from a soon-to-be published field study that concluded that neonics may not be as harmful to bees as portrayed in the media because they are not being expressed in plant pollen or the plant?s reproductive parts at levels that are high enough to hurt the bees.

?When we look at the literature and the Internet, what it says is that neonicotinoids applied as seed treatments are then taken up into the plant and expressed in the pollen and in the nectar,? said primary researcher Gus Lorenz, an extension entomologist with the University of Arkansas. ?Well, that?s not so much what we found.?

The researchers evaluated treated corn, soybeans and cotton. When they tested soybean flowers and cotton nectar, they found no traces of neonics at all. They did find microscopic traces of neonics in corn at what the EPA and toxicologists say are insignificant impact levels, with the highest having a mean of 2.3 parts per billion. To put that into perspective, one part per billion equals one second in 32 years. ?It?s not being expressed in the reproductive parts of the plants,? concluded Dr. Lorenz.

Yet those direct field observations conflict with some laboratory-based studies in leading journals and others in pay-to-play type publications in which bees treated in the lab with neonics are then released into the environment. In a French based study published in Science, a small percentage of free-ranging honeybees whose brains were doused with the neonic thiamethoxam got confused, failing to return to the hive. Another Science study, focusing on bumblebees, found those exposed to high doses of the neonic imidacloprid had reduced colony growth rates and produced significantly fewer queens to found new colonies. Just last month, research in the low-impact journal Excotoxicology concluded that bumblebees exposed to imidacloprid were somewhat worse at gathering pollen than untreated bees although the nectar foraging efficiency of treated bees was not significantly different than the controls. Last year, the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) released three studies, none conclusive, raising questions about the potential role of neonics in bee health.

While concerning, the way some of the research was conducted raises caution about how much weight to place on their findings independent of real world confirmation. For example, the French thiamethoxam study came under sharp criticism because bees do not encounter the chemical by having their brains directly exposed. Any pesticide, if misapplied to crops, could collaterally impact bee function; that?s one key reason why farmers, at the urging of scientists, phased out organophosphates. But that doesn?t answer the question driving the current regulation frenzy: Are neonicotinoids as they are used in the real world the driving force behind bee deaths?

The US Agriculture Department and the EPA convened a working group two years ago to address that very question. Their report, issued last May, put activists back on their heels. It concluded that neonics, while a contributor, were way down the list of possible causes. They cited as the primary drivers colony management, viruses, bacteria, poor nutrition, genetics and habitat loss. By far the biggest culprit?the report called it ?the single most detrimental pest of honeybees??was identified as the parasitic mite varroa destructor?the likely cause of the 2004 die-off.



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06 Jul 2014, 8:51 pm

This could go on awhile.That seems to be one of the few articles that says it may not be a factor.There are more articles that point towards neonics doing more harm than good.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... e19330959/


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eric76
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06 Jul 2014, 9:31 pm

Misslizard wrote:
This could go on awhile.That seems to be one of the few articles that says it may not be a factor.There are more articles that point towards neonics doing more harm than good.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-o ... e19330959/

I don't think that what the article describes is the Colony Collapse Disorder.

Nobody is saying that pesticides don't kill bees. What they are saying is that while they may kill some bees, they are not the cause of the widespread colony collapse disorder that threatens the pollination of plants to some extent.

Also note from the article:
Quote:
?We know from some of the tests that some of the bee deaths have some neonics in the system. There?s no out-and-out study that says absolutely that neonics have caused the death,? he said.

...

There is no doubt high doses of neonicotinoids can kill bees, but it is less clear that the decline in the number of bees is due to the rise in use of neonicotinoids, said Nigel Raine, a professor at University of Guelph, which was the recipient of a recent $750,000 gift from Bayer, one of the makers of the pesticide.

?The jury?s still out on what impacts are happening in the field,? said Mr. Raine, who recently co-authored a paper that reviewed the effects neonicotinoids have on the health of bees and other insect pollinators. The paper, published in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, called for more studies.



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06 Jul 2014, 9:54 pm

Which raises the question: what are beekeepers doing to replace all the dead bees???

Are they doing something to get Queens more quickly??


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06 Jul 2014, 10:27 pm

I don't think its 100% responsible,but it could be one of many factors.Pesticides are indiscriminate killers,not just the bad bugs die from them.People spread tick granules on yards and it kills everything,frogs,toads etc...Pesticides may also be responsible for lightning bug decline.http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/a ... 721250.php


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eric76
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06 Jul 2014, 10:41 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I don't think its 100% responsible,but it could be one of many factors.Pesticides are indiscriminate killers,not just the bad bugs die from them.People spread tick granules on yards and it kills everything,frogs,toads etc...Pesticides may also be responsible for lightning bug decline.http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/a ... 721250.php


If it is a factor at all in Colony Collapse Disorder, it is most likely a quite small factor.

If it was a major factor, then we would expect to see the effects dependent on the amount and kind of pesticide use in the area. If I understand it correctly, the effects are quite widespread including areas with little or no pesticide use. Furthermore, Colony Collapse Disorder is primarily seen in the winter when exposure to pesticides would be considerably less since much of the pesticide would have been degraded.



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06 Jul 2014, 10:55 pm

I don't like pesticides,they also are a factor in the decline of amphibians.
They linger longer than people think.I had some of those little black ants making an ant trail across the back porch,I worried they'd get in the house so I decided to spray their ant trail with OFF,a repellant.The rest of the summer I had ants falling dead from where I sprayed it.I quit using OFF after that,there's no way I'll spray it on my body after seeing how long it kept killing.And I felt bad about the ants,wished I'd left them alone.
One show I watched on bees mentioned their food sources,it used to be varied but when bee keepers started moving hives to help pollinate crops the bees just got a diet of whatever mono crop they were pollinating.Maybe also a factor,poor nutrition.
Some pesticides are systemic,they are always present in the plant through absorption.


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