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Raptor
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01 Aug 2014, 8:07 pm

/\ Cops usually arent real eager to take a "rape victim" at their word without some serious questioning, especially if their BS warning light comes on. Not all rape claims are legit and I'd be damned if I'd be a party in throwing some innocent guy's life away without first drilling down deep into the victim's story before taking that next step.

About getting drunk:
I have to agree with cyberdad on this one. Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


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em_tsuj
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03 Aug 2014, 4:59 pm

Raptor wrote:
/\ Cops usually arent real eager to take a "rape victim" at their word without some serious questioning, especially if their BS warning light comes on. Not all rape claims are legit and I'd be damned if I'd be a party in throwing some innocent guy's life away without first drilling down deep into the victim's story before taking that next step.

About getting drunk:
I have to agree with cyberdad on this one. Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


So it is a woman's fault if a man chooses to rape her? How is his behavior, his decision, her fault?

Also, why should untrained people who have a conflict of interest (meaning college administrators) be allowed to take the lead on rape investigations instead of linking rape victims to the proper authorities?



Raptor
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03 Aug 2014, 5:20 pm

Raptor wrote:
/\ Cops usually arent real eager to take a "rape victim" at their word without some serious questioning, especially if their BS warning light comes on. Not all rape claims are legit and I'd be damned if I'd be a party in throwing some innocent guy's life away without first drilling down deep into the victim's story before taking that next step.

About getting drunk:
I have to agree with cyberdad on this one. Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


em_tsuj wrote:
So it is a woman's fault if a man chooses to rape her? How is his behavior, his decision, her fault?
Where did I say that?

Quote:
Also, why should untrained people who have a conflict of interest (meaning college administrators) be allowed to take the lead on rape investigations instead of linking rape victims to the proper authorities?
I haven't even addressed that part of it. Grasping at straws are we?


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Dox47
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03 Aug 2014, 7:31 pm

em_tsuj wrote:
So it is a woman's fault if a man chooses to rape her? How is his behavior, his decision, her fault?


If you left your wallet full of money out in public, and someone took it, would it be wrong to say that you were partially responsible for that, rather than that people just shouldn't steal period and thus you have no accountability whatsoever? Ideally, yes, no one should victimize another person, but since we don't live in a utopia, it's wise not to make yourself vulnerable.


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em_tsuj
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03 Aug 2014, 9:43 pm

Dox47 wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
So it is a woman's fault if a man chooses to rape her? How is his behavior, his decision, her fault?


If you left your wallet full of money out in public, and someone took it, would it be wrong to say that you were partially responsible for that, rather than that people just shouldn't steal period and thus you have no accountability whatsoever? Ideally, yes, no one should victimize another person, but since we don't live in a utopia, it's wise not to make yourself vulnerable.


The person who stole is wrong. period. That person chose to take something that wasn't theirs to take. The other options that person had were to leave it there or to turn it in to the authorities. We each are responsible for our own behavior and our own choices.



em_tsuj
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03 Aug 2014, 9:49 pm

Raptor wrote:
Where did I say that?


You said that college women shouldn't get drunk. That shifts the blame off of the person who chose to rape the drunk girl. A rapist is a rapist--end of the story. Nothing that a woman does places any responsibility for the rape on the woman. Nobody asks to be rape.



Last edited by em_tsuj on 03 Aug 2014, 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

em_tsuj
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03 Aug 2014, 9:55 pm

Raptor wrote:

Quote:
Also, why should untrained people who have a conflict of interest (meaning college administrators) be allowed to take the lead on rape investigations instead of linking rape victims to the proper authorities?
I haven't even addressed that part of it. Grasping at straws are we?


In your post, This post:
Raptor wrote:
/\ Cops usually arent real eager to take a "rape victim" at their word without some serious questioning, especially if their BS warning light comes on. Not all rape claims are legit and I'd be damned if I'd be a party in throwing some innocent guy's life away without first drilling down deep into the victim's story before taking that next step.


you seem to compare the treatment of a rape victim by untrained college staff (who have every incentive to put the college's reputation ahead of victim's well-being) to that of police. There is no comparison. A professional forensics investigator is more likely to handle the situation better because that is exactly what he or she is paid to do. Somebody who works for the college and isn't trained or doesn't get paid to prosecute sex crimes, is likely to mess up the investigation (even if they are well-meaning) because they don't know what they are doing.

You, sir, are the one who is grasping at straws. I endorse using criminal investigators, not college staff, for rape investigations because they know what they are doing, not so they can prosecute an innocent person. Who is more qualified to gather evidence: the rent-a-cop campus police or the real police? Who is less likely to jump to conclusions? Who is more likely to be partial (not standing with the victim or the perpetrator)?

Also, what about this law makes it more likely that innocent people are going to be convicted of rape?



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03 Aug 2014, 10:18 pm

em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Where did I say that?


You said that college women shouldn't get drunk. That shifts the blame off of the person who chose to rape the drunk girl. A rapist is a rapist--end of the story. Nothing that a woman does places any responsibility for the rape on the woman. Nobody asks to be rape.


What I said was this \/ and if you'd read it you would have noticed I didnt specify women but everyone.
Raptor wrote:
Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


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Raptor
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03 Aug 2014, 10:29 pm

em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:

Quote:
Also, why should untrained people who have a conflict of interest (meaning college administrators) be allowed to take the lead on rape investigations instead of linking rape victims to the proper authorities?
I haven't even addressed that part of it. Grasping at straws are we?


In your post, This post:
Raptor wrote:
/\ Cops usually arent real eager to take a "rape victim" at their word without some serious questioning, especially if their BS warning light comes on. Not all rape claims are legit and I'd be damned if I'd be a party in throwing some innocent guy's life away without first drilling down deep into the victim's story before taking that next step.


you seem to compare the treatment of a rape victim by untrained college staff (who have every incentive to put the college's reputation ahead of victim's well-being) to that of police. There is no comparison. A professional forensics investigator is more likely to handle the situation better because that is exactly what he or she is paid to do. Somebody who works for the college and isn't trained or doesn't get paid to prosecute sex crimes, is likely to mess up the investigation (even if they are well-meaning) because they don't know what they are doing.

You, sir, are the one who is grasping at straws. I endorse using criminal investigators, not college staff, for rape investigations because they know what they are doing, not so they can prosecute an innocent person. Who is more qualified to gather evidence: the rent-a-cop campus police or the real police? Who is less likely to jump to conclusions? Who is more likely to be partial (not standing with the victim or the perpetrator)?

Also, what about this law makes it more likely that innocent people are going to be convicted of rape?


I clearly said COPS and that's what I meant. I said nothing about college staff and I even went back and bolder the word cops for you.
:roll:


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Ann2011
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03 Aug 2014, 10:50 pm

Yeah, I think the legislation should be amended to include both genders. Sexual assault is a bad thing regardless of whether a man or woman is the victim.



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03 Aug 2014, 10:55 pm

You can have my musket when you..., no, you never can have it.



em_tsuj
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03 Aug 2014, 10:59 pm

Raptor wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Where did I say that?


You said that college women shouldn't get drunk. That shifts the blame off of the person who chose to rape the drunk girl. A rapist is a rapist--end of the story. Nothing that a woman does places any responsibility for the rape on the woman. Nobody asks to be rape.


What I said was this \/ and if you'd read it you would have noticed I didnt specify women but everyone.
Raptor wrote:
Getting so plastered as to be vulnerable is generally unwise for anyone and to do so you're knowingly taking on risks in exchange for the joy ride.
It's simple: Don't want to be vulnerable? Moderate the drinking. Period.


I know what you wrote. You still haven't addressed my response. Regardless of what the victim does, the fault is always that of the perpetrator of the crime. That person actively follows through with the steps to commit a crime against the victim.

How would you feel if you reported a break-in at your home and the cop showed up and said, "Why did you move into the neighborhood? You knew it was a bad neighborhood? You set yourself up to be stolen from. Did you lock the doors? I don't see a burglar alarm in your home. You are an irresponsible homeowner." None of that stuff negates the fact that someone chose to come into your house and take stuff from you.



Last edited by em_tsuj on 03 Aug 2014, 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

em_tsuj
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03 Aug 2014, 11:01 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
Yeah, I think the legislation should be amended to include both genders. Sexual assault is a bad thing regardless of whether a man or woman is the victim.
I don't think the legislation is gender-specific, but women by far outnumber men as rape victims. That is why I tend to focus on female college students in my posts.



em_tsuj
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03 Aug 2014, 11:18 pm

Raptor wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Raptor wrote:

Quote:
Also, why should untrained people who have a conflict of interest (meaning college administrators) be allowed to take the lead on rape investigations instead of linking rape victims to the proper authorities?
I haven't even addressed that part of it. Grasping at straws are we?


In your post, This post:
Raptor wrote:
/\ Cops usually arent real eager to take a "rape victim" at their word without some serious questioning, especially if their BS warning light comes on. Not all rape claims are legit and I'd be damned if I'd be a party in throwing some innocent guy's life away without first drilling down deep into the victim's story before taking that next step.


you seem to compare the treatment of a rape victim by untrained college staff (who have every incentive to put the college's reputation ahead of victim's well-being) to that of police. There is no comparison. A professional forensics investigator is more likely to handle the situation better because that is exactly what he or she is paid to do. Somebody who works for the college and isn't trained or doesn't get paid to prosecute sex crimes, is likely to mess up the investigation (even if they are well-meaning) because they don't know what they are doing.

You, sir, are the one who is grasping at straws. I endorse using criminal investigators, not college staff, for rape investigations because they know what they are doing, not so they can prosecute an innocent person. Who is more qualified to gather evidence: the rent-a-cop campus police or the real police? Who is less likely to jump to conclusions? Who is more likely to be partial (not standing with the victim or the perpetrator)?

Also, what about this law makes it more likely that innocent people are going to be convicted of rape?


I clearly said COPS and that's what I meant. I said nothing about college staff and I even went back and bolder the word cops for you.
:roll:


Re-read the post that your arrow points to. In that post I said something about college administrators being the wrong people to handle rape cases. You immediately respond by saying something about cops not accepting a victim's claims without thorough questioning. You then go even further to imply that the legislation will result in innocent people getting convicted of rape.

You make two incorrect assumptions in your post about cops:
1) I don't want rape victims to be questioned. Otherwise, why would you make a comment that cops don't like to accept rape allegations without questioning the victim?
2) Removing barriers to victims of sexual assault reporting the crime will somehow lead to innocent people being convicted of rape. How does one thing naturally lead to the other?



Last edited by em_tsuj on 03 Aug 2014, 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ann2011
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03 Aug 2014, 11:21 pm

em_tsuj wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Yeah, I think the legislation should be amended to include both genders. Sexual assault is a bad thing regardless of whether a man or woman is the victim.
I don't think the legislation is gender-specific, but women by far outnumber men as rape victims. That is why I tend to focus on female college students in my posts.


You could be right, but I think a male victim would be even less likely to report a rape then a woman because of the added presumption of weakness in the man's not being able to fight off the attacker.



em_tsuj
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03 Aug 2014, 11:24 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
em_tsuj wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
Yeah, I think the legislation should be amended to include both genders. Sexual assault is a bad thing regardless of whether a man or woman is the victim.
I don't think the legislation is gender-specific, but women by far outnumber men as rape victims. That is why I tend to focus on female college students in my posts.


You could be right, but I think a male victim would be even less likely to report a rape then a woman because of the added presumption of weakness in the man's not being able to fight off the attacker.


You bring up a good point. I don't know how this legislation deals with the reluctance of male victims to report being victimized.