Torture and the CIA

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Sweetleaf
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11 Dec 2014, 2:03 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

With torture, it's not so much what was done to captured enemies, but what it does to us as Americans. We as a country have always prided ourselves for our national values - which among other things means we don't stoop as low as others to torture. But the Bush administration had decided to throw away that aspect of American exceptionalism. Lest it be forgotten, we had prosecuted and hanged German and Japanese war criminals for doing much the same after WWII. Now the rest of the world can say that our claims to such high values is hollow - and they would be right.

Pretty much...so much for the U.S 'setting an example for the rest of the world' :lol:

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felinesaresuperior
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11 Dec 2014, 2:08 pm

Humanaut wrote:

felinesaresuperior wrote:

I dont mind the terrorists being tortured, but there have been innocent people among them.

Who?

read on the internet news there were people thought to have been terrorists, but they werent. it was a mistake.

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Humanaut
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11 Dec 2014, 2:11 pm

It is not unlikely, probably not fully preventable, but hopefully not very common. I know of no such cases.

androbot01
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11 Dec 2014, 5:15 pm

I tend to think that the "good guys" should be above the use of torture, no matter who the subject is. It's not about if they have it coming or not, it's about if you can still claim to be on the side of good when you torture someone. Maybe you can, I don't know. Maybe evil is necessary sometimes.

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Kraichgauer
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11 Dec 2014, 5:33 pm

Humanaut wrote:

Which enemies are you referring to?

The Dutch. (Shakes head) Islamic fanatics we've been fighting for years, of course!

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Humanaut
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11 Dec 2014, 6:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Humanaut wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Humanaut wrote:

You're making noise from within the protective bubble blown by the very people you criticize. Funny.

No protective bubble. Cheney, Rumsfeld, the CIA, and their boss Bush Jr. had put us all in jeopardy with their abhorrent torture policies - I only wish we Americans had a protective bubble now to protect us now that our enemies figure they have the moral high ground.

Which enemies are you referring to?

The Dutch. (Shakes head) Islamic fanatics we've been fighting for years, of course!

Religious fanaticism presupposes a conviction of moral superiority. In other words, this changes nothing, and you are already protected by those you condemn. So, I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Anyway, today's statement by CIA Director John Brennan is clarifying (starts at 30:00).

Kraichgauer
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11 Dec 2014, 7:52 pm

Humanaut wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Humanaut wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Humanaut wrote:

You're making noise from within the protective bubble blown by the very people you criticize. Funny.

Which enemies are you referring to?

The Dutch. (Shakes head) Islamic fanatics we've been fighting for years, of course!

If said fanatics could get past American intelligence back in 9/11 in order to hurt this country, I'm sure they can do it again - this time to punish us for the acts of torture committed by the Bush crew.
And as for being protected by those who I condemn - as an american, I have the freedom to speak put against the actions of "those who are supposed to protect me," without fear of being stopped, or fear of being made to feel ungrateful.

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Humanaut
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11 Dec 2014, 8:13 pm

I don't think anyone will stop you or make you feel ungrateful for condemning those who protect you, but some might feel that preemptively blaming George W. Bush for future terrorist attacks is a bit odd, and they would of course be entitled to their opinion just as you are entitled to yours.

Grimalkin
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11 Dec 2014, 8:24 pm

Ay, no. I'm fascinated by the justice system, and a lot of the time I want to genuinely believe that people are trying to help... but then stuff like this happens.

On another note, how does one become a "torturer"? Who do they pay to hurt other people like that? What kind of person could possibly be that sadistic? It's creepy to think about, but there are real people behind these headlines. In books it's always the mastermind doing the torture, but that's not how it is in real life, is it?

I had wanted to work as a forensic psychologist, but now I'm not so sure...

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Humanaut
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11 Dec 2014, 8:35 pm

Grimalkin wrote:

...how does one become a "torturer"? Who do they pay to hurt other people like that? What kind of person could possibly be that sadistic? It's creepy to think about, but there are real people behind these headlines.

I don't think sadists are fit for the job.

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11 Dec 2014, 8:42 pm

Humanaut wrote:

Sure, if Islamists are going to attack us, they'll do it with little or no provocation, but still Bush didn't help the situation.

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Humanaut
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11 Dec 2014, 8:48 pm

Sure he did. He killed a lot of them.

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11 Dec 2014, 11:34 pm

Humanaut wrote:

Sure he did. He killed a lot of them.

And Obama killed the head honcho.

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12 Dec 2014, 4:57 am

And let's not forget the men and women on the ground who are risking their lives to protect and save lives.

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12 Dec 2014, 1:36 pm

I don't believe in torture, because it goes against our own values and everything our democracies stand for, torturing people means we are lowering ourselves to the same level has the terrorists we are fighting against.
But then, why do we have secret services? Because sometimes for a democracy and it's freedoms and it's people be protected the democracies have to act outside the law and go against it's own values, it's sad but it's like that.
Then if torture is about collecting information out of someone then it's pure wrong. But if a bomb is about to go off in 3 hours into a major city killing 300 to 500 people, and we have the bomb maker in custody and he has the code to stop the bomb and reveal where the bomb is, in that case only, maybe torturing him might be a solution to save 500 people, but that is an extreme example.
But again, nothing justifies torture.

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Protogenoi
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13 Dec 2014, 11:27 pm

felinesaresuperior wrote:

dont think there will be much investigation, or that much change, only cosmetic changes. election is coming up is why the president said it'll stop.

I dont mind the terrorists being tortured, but there have been innocent people among them. they should check before locking up innocent people, and certainly check before torturing an innocent person. they can shoot the terrorists for all I care.

wasnt it the cia that did those experiments with electric shocks on mental patients or something? federal agencies such as this dont have any scruples hurting innocent people, and this goes for all federal agencies globwide, not just the US. something universal.

Yes, the Army did electric shocks on mental patients. More precisely they laced schizophrenics with drugs and then implanted electrodes in their brains so that they could activate different parts of the brain at the push of a button.
The CIA did a lot more than simple electric shocks. They had everything from experimenting with concussions to cause amnesia to abducting children and put them in drug induced comas>

Wikipedia has a rather horrifying list on the subject

Unethical Human Experimentation in the US - LINK

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