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Lubitz: clear signs of NPD, not depression

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starfox
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30 Mar 2015, 12:43 pm

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they are part of the dark triad and therefore are good with using society to their advantage while being among the most dangerous neurotypes. They could use some stigmatizing.


Actually they could be good for society if they're natural self is channeled into something that would benefit. They are more useful. What use is a depressed person though? If you look at it in a way without emotions but pure facts.


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30 Mar 2015, 1:11 pm

I just heard on CNN that Lubitz's poor vision is now being called psychosomatic by his doctor. If this is true, then this guy had problems that went beyond his sight.


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30 Mar 2015, 2:03 pm

B19 wrote:
There's a deeper issue here, from my perspective.

Not all narcissists are toxic to the same degree, though all are toxic in some degree; they are all to some degree sociopathic and/or psychopathic, though some disguise this extremely well. There is no impairment of intelligence in NPD; many score very well on intelligence measures. The malignant NPD's are the most dangerous, and Lubitz could be a poster boy for them.

There is a lot of commentary from people who discuss NPD - both lay and professional people - that there are particular careers that attract the NPD sociopaths, especially those that offer the potential for power over others and limelight for themselves, and ones which are likely to cater to their characteristic greed; hence popular career choices for narcissists are thought to be: politics, psychiatry, law, celebrity, gurus, religious televangelism, and any other 'name in lights' career, eg television 'celebrity'.

That is NOT to say (please don't make this leap of generalisation) that EVERYONE in these careers is a case of NPD. They are not. Yet NPDs are far more common than the general public realise. And often they are charismatic and very good actors, skilled at portraying themselves as the good guys. Hypocrisy is another of their characteristic hallmarks.

Scary, isn't it. Yet it might explain why they are so good at flying under the radar: so many of them are controlling the radar....

If you are unfamiliar with what cluster B NPD is, do some reading; if you haven't already met one, you probably will at some stage, and they are destroyers of other people's lives, especially those closest to them - spouses and children. Being able to recognise them with an early warning alert is a very self-protective skill to have - and particularly perhaps for people on the spectrum.


OMG, I only read about a QUARTER of THIS page:

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder?qsrc=3044&lang=en

and got sick to my stomach, as I TOO have met people like this----all-too-often it is spoiled-rotten brats!! Now, obviously, not all brats are to this extreme, but.....

Part of the reason that I got sick to my stomach was because I have a sister who is probably one of these. She SEEMS to have empathy----BUT, is she just doing it, to seem sweet / caring? I think SO!! She lies with just about every other exhale----so much so, that she doesn't even remember what she's lied about, and contradicts herself, constantly. She has a HUGE sense of entitlement. She ALWAYS needs to be the center of attention----and when a conversation, for instance, has gone too far away from HER, she's been know to even do OUTLANDISH things to bring attention, back to her. She's forever trying to make people feel / think that she has just given them a kidney, and that they OWE her. Going back to the conversation thing, I have OFTEN said to her: "I don't see what that has to do with anything I (or someone else) just said". (That's part of the reason we don't get-along----because I have NO compunction about pointing-out to her, what she does----and there's NO WAY she's going to look at HERSELF as the reason someone feels bad, or whatever!) She's forever trying to make herself sound important----the smartest, the prettiest, the most wise, the most kind / giving / caring (like, if someone gave $100 to a charity, she would give TWO-hundred, to draw attention to HER), the one with the most money, the one with the most experience.....

The only time she does anything for anyone, is if there's something in it, for HERSELF!!

She, IMO, is NOT your average ego-centric person, or whatever, as she works HARD at it----works HARD at controlling, manipulating, and using people----using people as puppets / slaves / whatever you wanna call it.....

As bad as SHE is, I meant someone WORSE about a year-and-a-half, ago----and, I'm just now getting over how ROYALLY screwed I was, by that person. It's my own fault, all the warning bells were going-off, and I ignored them.....

BOTH of these people are spoiled-rotten BRATS, too!!

I may be willing to say my sister isn't as bad because she's my sister, and we want to be more forgiving of family----BUT, I don't believe ANYTHING she says (and will always look-up what she says, if I can, on the Internet----like, when she said she went to somebody's concert----and, I've got ALL KINDS of copies of everything she's ever said to me, on Fb, for instance, so I can reference them, to see if she's lying----THEN, or NOW)----and, wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her----which means, ZERO.

I meet people every single time I go-out, that have a sense of entitlement----but, not with the cunning of these two!

BTW, my sister is a teacher----and, the other person is a counselor (sort-of like a therapist----but, with a certificate, instead of a degree)----both of which, I feel, fits into the aforementioned careers of being "the center of attention"-type jobs. (I agree that not everyone in those fields are NPDs, as I, myself, used to teach.)

Yes, it is most DEFINITELY scary----and, what you said, B19, about them controlling (and I might add creating) the radar, was extremely profound; and I agree that they can ruin lives, as I have been pretty "battered" by them, myself.



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30 Mar 2015, 2:17 pm

starfox wrote:
Quote:
they are part of the dark triad and therefore are good with using society to their advantage while being among the most dangerous neurotypes. They could use some stigmatizing.


Actually they could be good for society if they're natural self is channeled into something that would benefit. They are more useful. What use is a depressed person though? If you look at it in a way without emotions but pure facts.


Starfox, have you ever heard of Winston Churchill, Michaelangelo and Isaac Newton? They were all depressed "useless" people from your perspective. I certainly didn't create this thread so that you could use it to try and stigmatise the depressed (many on WP) and whitewash malignant narcissists who murder and/or harm without conscience.



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30 Mar 2015, 2:33 pm

Camping Cat, its quite a shock wave when you recognise an NPD person in your life and even in your family/inner circle/marriage. Yet it's often quickly followed by a sense of relief, that you have at last put your finger on what was so hard and elusive to pin down before. The media largely ignore NPD (unlike all the other disorders, which media sensationalise and stigmatise) so there is relatively little informed public awareness of how dangerous this personality disorder is to other people.

Yet, conversely, relatively harmless people are grossly smeared as potential killers simply because they are autistic...media hypocrisy.

Never forget (I don't think you will) that these people can really turn on the charm when it suits their ultimate purposes; it is all an act, though they are often superb actors. They don't reform, they don't change, and they often get worse with age. Take care and keep a safe distance from her.



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30 Mar 2015, 2:46 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
B19 wrote:
There's a deeper issue here, from my perspective.

Not all narcissists are toxic to the same degree, though all are toxic in some degree; they are all to some degree sociopathic and/or psychopathic, though some disguise this extremely well. There is no impairment of intelligence in NPD; many score very well on intelligence measures. The malignant NPD's are the most dangerous, and Lubitz could be a poster boy for them.

There is a lot of commentary from people who discuss NPD - both lay and professional people - that there are particular careers that attract the NPD sociopaths, especially those that offer the potential for power over others and limelight for themselves, and ones which are likely to cater to their characteristic greed; hence popular career choices for narcissists are thought to be: politics, psychiatry, law, celebrity, gurus, religious televangelism, and any other 'name in lights' career, eg television 'celebrity'.

That is NOT to say (please don't make this leap of generalisation) that EVERYONE in these careers is a case of NPD. They are not. Yet NPDs are far more common than the general public realise. And often they are charismatic and very good actors, skilled at portraying themselves as the good guys. Hypocrisy is another of their characteristic hallmarks.

Scary, isn't it. Yet it might explain why they are so good at flying under the radar: so many of them are controlling the radar....

If you are unfamiliar with what cluster B NPD is, do some reading; if you haven't already met one, you probably will at some stage, and they are destroyers of other people's lives, especially those closest to them - spouses and children. Being able to recognise them with an early warning alert is a very self-protective skill to have - and particularly perhaps for people on the spectrum.


OMG, I only read about a QUARTER of THIS page:

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder?qsrc=3044&lang=en

and got sick to my stomach, as I TOO have met people like this----all-too-often it is spoiled-rotten brats!! Now, obviously, not all brats are to this extreme, but.....

Part of the reason that I got sick to my stomach was because I have a sister who is probably one of these. She SEEMS to have empathy----BUT, is she just doing it, to seem sweet / caring? I think SO!! She lies with just about every other exhale----so much so, that she doesn't even remember what she's lied about, and contradicts herself, constantly. She has a HUGE sense of entitlement. She ALWAYS needs to be the center of attention----and when a conversation, for instance, has gone too far away from HER, she's been know to even do OUTLANDISH things to bring attention, back to her. She's forever trying to make people feel / think that she has just given them a kidney, and that they OWE her. Going back to the conversation thing, I have OFTEN said to her: "I don't see what that has to do with anything I (or someone else) just said". (That's part of the reason we don't get-along----because I have NO compunction about pointing-out to her, what she does----and there's NO WAY she's going to look at HERSELF as the reason someone feels bad, or whatever!) She's forever trying to make herself sound important----the smartest, the prettiest, the most wise, the most kind / giving / caring (like, if someone gave $100 to a charity, she would give TWO-hundred, to draw attention to HER), the one with the most money, the one with the most experience.....

The only time she does anything for anyone, is if there's something in it, for HERSELF!!

She, IMO, is NOT your average ego-centric person, or whatever, as she works HARD at it----works HARD at controlling, manipulating, and using people----using people as puppets / slaves / whatever you wanna call it.....

As bad as SHE is, I meant someone WORSE about a year-and-a-half, ago----and, I'm just now getting over how ROYALLY screwed I was, by that person. It's my own fault, all the warning bells were going-off, and I ignored them.....

BOTH of these people are spoiled-rotten BRATS, too!!

I may be willing to say my sister isn't as bad because she's my sister, and we want to be more forgiving of family----BUT, I don't believe ANYTHING she says (and will always look-up what she says, if I can, on the Internet----like, when she said she went to somebody's concert----and, I've got ALL KINDS of copies of everything she's ever said to me, on Fb, for instance, so I can reference them, to see if she's lying----THEN, or NOW)----and, wouldn't trust her as far as I could throw her----which means, ZERO.

I meet people every single time I go-out, that have a sense of entitlement----but, not with the cunning of these two!

BTW, my sister is a teacher----and, the other person is a counselor (sort-of like a therapist----but, with a certificate, instead of a degree)----both of which, I feel, fits into the aforementioned careers of being "the center of attention"-type jobs. (I agree that not everyone in those fields are NPDs, as I, myself, used to teach.)

Yes, it is most DEFINITELY scary----and, what you said, B19, about them controlling (and I might add creating) the radar, was extremely profound; and I agree that they can ruin lives, as I have been pretty "battered" by them, myself.


Essentially your microcosm is a macrocosm of the autistic/neurotypical situation.
We create each other from the soup of opposites :!:
If no suckers existed and everyone was wise to them,
they would die out like a fire with no fuel :!:
If you have learnt your lesson from her/them,
let her go, otherwise her memory will continue to traumatize you
And she will continue to control you.

I was broken by the same people you mention,
But what I was,
was breakable in waiting, anyway
And am the wiser for the experience :idea:
My rebuild is progressing well :jester:



lostonearth35
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30 Mar 2015, 2:58 pm

Depression is the "common cold" of mental illness, except that it's a lot more serious than a cold, so the general belief that people with depression are "crazy" or somehow at fault for their suffering is... well, depressing. :(



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30 Mar 2015, 2:59 pm

I'm just saying that being without concience isn't bad by itself. It's what you do. Just because somebody doesn't feel guilt it doesn't mean they are automatically a murderer or something. They might be nice and could help society move forward. It's what you do not who you are.


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30 Mar 2015, 3:12 pm

Possibly this book, by the person recognised as a leading researcher on NPD, could offer you a more reality based perspective on this:

"Without Conscience" author: Robert Hare

Here's a brief summary of it:

http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/en-ca/boo ... -item.html



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30 Mar 2015, 3:15 pm

Okay ill have a look


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30 Mar 2015, 3:19 pm

Good for you, Starfox :)



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30 Mar 2015, 3:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I remember a line from Stephen King's novel, Misery, that goes something like: "Depressives kill themselves; psychotics take others with them."


Seems to be confusing psychosis (psychological break from reality) for psychopathy (diseased personality).

I'm told that the 'professional wisdom' goes: "Psychotics haven't killed as many people in the past 50 years as teenage psychopaths with knives have killed in the last six months." Which isn't necessarily intended to convey a true statement about murder statistics as correlated to mental health conditions, as it is to delineate the profound difference between the two.


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30 Mar 2015, 4:55 pm

B19 wrote:
Camping Cat, its quite a shock wave when you recognise an NPD person in your life and even in your family/inner circle/marriage. Yet it's often quickly followed by a sense of relief, that you have at last put your finger on what was so hard and elusive to pin down before. The media largely ignore NPD (unlike all the other disorders, which media sensationalise and stigmatise) so there is relatively little informed public awareness of how dangerous this personality disorder is to other people.

Yet, conversely, relatively harmless people are grossly smeared as potential killers simply because they are autistic...media hypocrisy.

Never forget (I don't think you will) that these people can really turn on the charm when it suits their ultimate purposes; it is all an act, though they are often superb actors. They don't reform, they don't change, and they often get worse with age. Take care and keep a safe distance from her.


Well, I'm hopin' for a sense of relief----right now, I'm feeling something entirely too close to "hatred", to feel relief.

The problem IS, is that I seem to forget, or something----it seems like I will NEVER learn, to not be so trusting. I think, maybe, it's sort-of innate with us ASDers to trust----because we're so honest, we forget that others AREN'T.

I was just posting about this, recently..... In a way, I feel it's good that I still try to see the good in people----but, in another way, it isn't, of course, because I can get horn-swoggled. In a way, it's good that I haven't become jaded, or bitter, or whatever----but, in ANOTHER way, it's bad, because right now I fear my soul might be marred, for life.

They sure ARE the BEST actors in the WORLD!! Also, I agree that they get worse with age, as I was SHOCKED that my sister has gotten so MUCH worse----and / or, I'm seeing it with different eyes (a different perspective), since I'VE aged.....

Yeah, I DO keep my distance----but, I can't BEGIN to tell you how much it pains me that I can't be close with her. (She UNfriended me on Fb, BTW! LOL)



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30 Mar 2015, 5:18 pm

A significant factor in healing from abuse (and if you have been in a significant relationship with someone with NPD, like a sibling, you have experienced abuse) is the act of NAMING situations for what they are. This is a foundation stone of recovery for many, and I think it is particularly so in relation to the abuse by NPD abusers.

PS: Narcissists dump you when you are no longer a useful source of their narcissistic supply. You could be in critical care in hospital and they would dump you because you are no longer of use to them. Sadly, I know of one instance where this happened to a person whom I know well. The callous indifference the NPDs can inflict on others is shocking to the rest of us.



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30 Mar 2015, 5:25 pm

Alienhybrid wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
Part of the reason that I got sick to my stomach was because I have a sister who is probably one of these. She SEEMS to have empathy----BUT, is she just doing it, to seem sweet / caring? I think SO!! She lies with just about every other exhale----so much so, that she doesn't even remember what she's lied about, and contradicts herself, constantly. She has a HUGE sense of entitlement. She ALWAYS needs to be the center of attention----and when a conversation, for instance, has gone too far away from HER, she's been know to even do OUTLANDISH things to bring attention, back to her. She's forever trying to make people feel / think that she has just given them a kidney, and that they OWE her. Going back to the conversation thing, I have OFTEN said to her: "I don't see what that has to do with anything I (or someone else) just said". (That's part of the reason we don't get-along----because I have NO compunction about pointing-out to her, what she does----and there's NO WAY she's going to look at HERSELF as the reason someone feels bad, or whatever!) She's forever trying to make herself sound important----the smartest, the prettiest, the most wise, the most kind / giving / caring (like, if someone gave $100 to a charity, she would give TWO-hundred, to draw attention to HER), the one with the most money, the one with the most experience.....

The only time she does anything for anyone, is if there's something in it, for HERSELF!!

She, IMO, is NOT your average ego-centric person, or whatever, as she works HARD at it----works HARD at controlling, manipulating, and using people----using people as puppets / slaves / whatever you wanna call it.....



Essentially your microcosm is a macrocosm of the autistic/neurotypical situation.
We create each other from the soup of opposites :!:
If no suckers existed and everyone was wise to them,
they would die out like a fire with no fuel :!:
If you have learnt your lesson from her/them,
let her go, otherwise her memory will continue to traumatize you
And she will continue to control you.

Yeah, I don't really get the micro / macro / soup part, but I really appreciate your words of support. The "letting her go" part is easy enough, because we only see each other once, about every 10-20 years----and that may be another reason why I forget, actually! I'm so excited to see her----always with the hope that maybe THIS time, we'll get-along----but, it's all for naught, unfortunately.....

I was broken by the same people you mention,
But what I was,
was breakable in waiting, anyway
And am the wiser for the experience
My rebuild is progressing well

Now, the "breakable-in-waiting" part, I DEFINITELY understand----and TOTALLY feel it applies to ME, as well. I feel if I had a life, I wouldn't be so vulnerable to these people----and I feel sure that as soon as I can find a job, I'll stop being so damned gullible, or whatever----or, at least, LESS-so----because I'll have a life, THEN.

Yeah, my "rebuild" is coming-along----but, I feel a year-and-a-half is entirely TOO long!!



Thanks again, for you words of advice / encouragement----and you TOO, B19 (I don't think I thanked you, properly)----I really appreciate it!!



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30 Mar 2015, 5:53 pm

B19 wrote:
A significant factor in healing from abuse (and if you have been in a significant relationship with someone with NPD, like a sibling, you have experienced abuse) is the act of NAMING situations for what they are. This is a foundation stone of recovery for many, and I think it is particularly so in relation to the abuse by NPD abusers.


Quoted for truth.

This is the hump I'm currently trying to get over in my divorce process. NPD abusers like my ex-wife are great chameleons and will stop at nothing to get their way. The damage they leave in their wake is inconsequential to them. It's bad enough to damage 1 person... to take 150 with you is unconscionable.


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