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Sweetleaf
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14 Aug 2015, 10:24 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
Barchan wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
In downtown Baltimore, there is more than one business called "Black Something" (I can't remember the exact names). Now, they don't SAY "No whites allowed", but the name SCREAMS exclusivity, IMO----


Your imaginary persecution has nothing in common with this example of very real, non-imaginary discrimination. Frankly I'm a little insulted that you think that's a fair comparison.

First-of-all, what sparked my desire to post, was THIS, by NaturalPlastic:

naturalplastic wrote:
Its discrimination based upon religion (in the same category as racial discrimination)....

.....and, I was gonna quote him, in my last post, but I hit the wrong button.

Secondly, I DO feel that a sign that says "Black Something" is just as "in your face", as a sign that says "Muslim Free", and that the sentiment is NOT "imaginary".

I am sick-to-DEATH of discrimination being thought-of as ONE-way----whites get discriminated against, EVERY day; but, it doesn't matter, and no one's gonna start a revolution, demonstration, or riot, because of it.

Also, unless you're black or Muslim, I don't understand why you'd be insulted.


Whites as a group over-all have not really faced systematic racial discrimination, especially in the U.S...so what would be the point of a revolution, demonstration or riot over discrimination against whites, when that tends to be more isolated rather than systematic. I certainly do not think 'only white people are capable of racism/discrimination' but I'd say particularly in the U.S black people and other minorities face more systematic racial discrimination that white people...now if you're poor and white, that also gets a lot of stigma and what not as well. I mean aside from a few isolated incidents where someone has tried insulting me for being 'white' I cant say I've faced a lot of discrimination based on that...somehow I think if my native roots where more obvious in my appearance I'd probably have experienced more incidents of racial discrimination. Based on statistics and what I have observed it does tend to hold true racial miniorities face more racial discrimination and systematic abuse than your typical white yuppie.

And I am just insulted that there are people so stuck on discrimination they really want to go out of their way to specifically refuse service to people who follow a certain religion and cause a scene. I mean no doubt the business management thinks muslim=terrorist, so they are trying to come of as great freedom fighters for refusing service to evil terrorists because all muslims are clearly terrorists....that is insulting that there are people this stupid.


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14 Aug 2015, 10:25 am

Humanaut wrote:
Property rights aren't what they used to be.


Thank the Lord for that.


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Sweetleaf
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14 Aug 2015, 10:27 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I am not advocating based on anyone's look or religion but some of these sellers get vibes off people and they don't want to sell something yet they have to because of fear of being sued. They should be protected. Besides, it's not the government infringing here. It's the owner of a private entity. So, don't they have the right to refuse service? They should. And I am not advocating refusal for trivial reasons and for trivial things.



"we're refusing you service because you're a muslim and we don't like your kind".....IDK sounds like refusal for trivial reasons and trivial things to me. Also you clearly are advocating for businesses to have the right to refuse service based on peoples look or religion....since you are using this case as an example of where you think a business ought to have the right to refuse service so what do you mean you're not?


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14 Aug 2015, 11:24 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Property rights aren't what they used to be.
Thank the Lord for that.

The Lord will have to share the end credits of Overgeneralization, the movie, with Karl Marx, but we can still take it out on the dogs, hence the animal rights activists have a job to do. Dogs are members of the public.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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14 Aug 2015, 12:50 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I am not advocating based on anyone's look or religion but some of these sellers get vibes off people and they don't want to sell something yet they have to because of fear of being sued. They should be protected. Besides, it's not the government infringing here. It's the owner of a private entity. So, don't they have the right to refuse service? They should. And I am not advocating refusal for trivial reasons and for trivial things.


Do mean legally? Or morally?

Legally a private business cannot refuse service based upon race. My understanding is that they cant do that based upon religion either. Not since 1964. So you're advocating rolling back the civil rights movement (or big part of it).

Some folks are starting a trend to do just that based on libertarian grounds. Allow businesses to discriminate by race etc.. That's a whole nother can of worms.

Im not clear why this gun store wants to be "Muslim free". If the owner just hates brown skinned towelheads then that's not a compelling reason for his action to my mind. But if he's afraid Muslims might have terrorist connections and that's why he doesn't want to sell them guns then that has some logic. Though I doubt that he we would be sued yet, though in the future that might be legally possible.

Actually I didn't read your whole post before responding. LOL.
Yeah- a drinking establishment, or liquor store, has the right to refuse your business if you look like you're already bombed. Stuff like that is allowed legally (and is morally fine IMHO).


I agree, refusing Muslims in particular violates the law because of religious discrimination but what I am talking about specifically is the idea someone reserves the right to refuse business and is not required to give a reason so no one knows why they are refusing but them and if there's no proof of why they refuse the business, you can't accuse them of any crime. Evidence must exist for a crime to be prosecuted.
An example would be some angry guy comes in, wants to buy a gun, is cussing and saying under his breathe, "I'm gonna get even with that rotten SOB if it's the last thing I do!" The business owner says, sir you are going to have to leave the premises without ever selling him anything and/or calls the cops because he made a threat. If he's a Muslim, so what? It's what he said and how he was acting that caused the business owner to determine he wasn't going to sell him anything to be used in a possible commission of a crime. Or, he could be a disgruntled office worker. It could be someone who is angry at their spouse over a custody battle. The business owner hears stuff he doesn't like so he decides he will refuse to sell. The government isn't infringing on anyone's rights, it's the business owner, so how does it violate any constitution?



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14 Aug 2015, 2:34 pm

Adamantium wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Property rights aren't what they used to be.


And ain't it grand! You can't make people your property when once you could!


Yep.

The free market is a horrendously overrated concept. "Free" in this context simply means that those with financial power are free to exploit, abuse, and oppress those without it. It's a very one-sided "freedom."



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14 Aug 2015, 2:41 pm

Adamantium wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
In downtown Baltimore, there is more than one business called "Black Something" (I can't remember the exact names). Now, they don't SAY "No whites allowed", but the name SCREAMS exclusivity, IMO----but, discrimination only goes one way; if a business was called "White Something", it'd be burned to the ground.

I feel private businesses should be able to exclude whomever they want to exclude.


Bull.

If you open your doors to the public, then you can't discriminate.
I'm sure you have never tried to go into one of those "black something" stores and have no idea what you're talking about.

I didn't say it was a STORE, I said it was a business----as in, services----like, one of 'em is called "Black Psychological Services" (or, something like that); and, no, I've never been in there cuz, it clearly says they don't have anything to offer me. Another one is "Black Loans" (again, NOT the actual name); and, no, I wouldn't go in there, either----even if I needed to----because I would assume they would screw-me-over, because I was white----just like white people screw-over blacks, if they're poor, for instance.

Now, I HAVE been in a "black store"----as in, a store that sells African stuff----and, they weren't discriminatory, unless you count the fact that they see "white", and automatically think "money".


If you do and they say, "No whites allowed" then sue the bastards-if they are discriminating against whites, you will win.

Doubt it, cuz it would be very hard to prove----if they had a sign; then, maybe.

The idea that the law somehow favors blacks is 100% horse manure.

No, the law doesn't favor black folks, but lawYERS, DO----and, before you say "they wouldn't be allowed to", no one could PROVE that that's what they were doing.

But why do you feel that business should be able to discriminate against customers because they feel like it? No awareness of history? Some group that you don't like?

That idea was tried in the US before, and it was s**t.

To me, it's similar to "free speech". This country is suppose to be "the land of the free"----but, that's only if whatever you say or do, doesn't get someone's panties in a wad.

Don't get me wrong, I don't throw-out the baby with the bathwater----IOW, I don't discount an entire race, because of the actions of one / few----but, I do NOT believe in catering to whiners!

I'll concede that the "Muslim Free" sign is not EXACTLY the same, as the "Black Business" sign----but, I STILL say the "Black Business" sign SCREAMS of exclusivity (just like the "Black Lives Matter" signs), AND I STILL say that if someone were to name a business "White Business", that it would be burned to the ground; and, there would be riots in the street, and everything.

I don't live in Whiteville, U.S.A. (or, even Mixedville)----things are different, here----what's good for the goose, is NOT good for the gander; IOW, if one group screams "racism", that's okay----but, not EVERY group, is allowed that luxury.




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14 Aug 2015, 3:05 pm

Barchan wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
I DO feel that a sign that says "Black Something" is just as "in your face", as a sign that says "Muslim Free",


Being pro-black isn't the same as being anti-white, or anti-anything else. It's a false equivalence.

Okay, I'll give you that----but, then, why can't white people be "pro-white" (as long as they're not of a "white is superior" mindset), without everybody (whites, included) goin' nutso?

Campin_Cat wrote:
Also, unless you're black or Muslim, I don't understand why you'd be insulted.

Completely irrelevant, my own race and religion have no bearing on this conversation. Ending discrimination is everyone's responsibility, not just the affected group.

Yes, I agree! To ME, however, the word "insulted" is of a personal nature----like, if I said: "I wish she wouldn't do things, like that; she makes women look bad". Someone ELSE can't make me look bad----just as I wouldn't, personally, be insulted if someone said something about my race, religion, whatever; that would be a GENERAL opinion, of THEIR'S.



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14 Aug 2015, 3:36 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
In downtown Baltimore, there is more than one business called "Black Something" (I can't remember the exact names). Now, they don't SAY "No whites allowed", but the name SCREAMS exclusivity, IMO----but, discrimination only goes one way; if a business was called "White Something", it'd be burned to the ground.

I feel private businesses should be able to exclude whomever they want to exclude.


I feel they should not...for instance say a bunch of buisinesses in an area decide 'oh we're not going to serve homosexuals' what then happens to homosexuals that live in that area if just about all the businesses are going to 'refuse service' based on that. People have to have access to getting goods and services, allowing companies to discriminate at will like that would only create more problems. I say such petty people should not be in the business of serving and/or interacting with the public.

Yes, you have a point----BUT, we're not talking about "common goods", here. The OP mentioned a "tactical gear supply store", and I've heard several stories of, like, floral shops not selling to gays, for gay weddings----but, again, that's not "common goods" (as in, grocery store)----AND, it's not a "company" in the sense of "national"; we're talking "Mom and Pop".

Yes, it would totally suck, if several businesses in an area decided to do that; but, I'm not saying that everybody SHOULD do that----I'm saying, people (small businesses) should be ALLOWED to sell to whomever they wish.



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14 Aug 2015, 3:40 pm

People should have a right to discriminate against whomever they want to, and to be as bigoted as they want, under any circumstances. Let them face the consequences of their actions.


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14 Aug 2015, 4:19 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
People should have a right to discriminate against whomever they want to, and to be as bigoted as they want, under any circumstances. Let them face the consequences of their actions.


What consequences?



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14 Aug 2015, 4:27 pm

Campin_Cat wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Campin_Cat wrote:
In downtown Baltimore, there is more than one business called "Black Something" (I can't remember the exact names). Now, they don't SAY "No whites allowed", but the name SCREAMS exclusivity, IMO----but, discrimination only goes one way; if a business was called "White Something", it'd be burned to the ground.

I feel private businesses should be able to exclude whomever they want to exclude.


I feel they should not...for instance say a bunch of buisinesses in an area decide 'oh we're not going to serve homosexuals' what then happens to homosexuals that live in that area if just about all the businesses are going to 'refuse service' based on that. People have to have access to getting goods and services, allowing companies to discriminate at will like that would only create more problems. I say such petty people should not be in the business of serving and/or interacting with the public.

Yes, you have a point----BUT, we're not talking about "common goods", here. The OP mentioned a "tactical gear supply store", and I've heard several stories of, like, floral shops not selling to gays, for gay weddings----but, again, that's not "common goods" (as in, grocery store)----AND, it's not a "company" in the sense of "national"; we're talking "Mom and Pop".

Yes, it would totally suck, if several businesses in an area decided to do that; but, I'm not saying that everybody SHOULD do that----I'm saying, people (small businesses) should be ALLOWED to sell to whomever they wish.


Well last I checked following a certain religion is not actual grounds to deny someone the purchase of a weapon if we have the right to have weapons. Thus specifically stating 'no muslims allowed' makes it quite possible for them to be sued repeatedly since its illegal for a business to refuse service/discriminate on the basis of religion. Should Christians also be denied the right to purchase fire-arms or other weapons where its legal?

And I suppose I will just have to agree to disagree...I do not think businesses are entitled to such a right if they want to be open to the public. To interact with the public there is some social responsibility which involves following anti-discrimination laws. What would be the point of allowing that....just so we can show the world we've decided to back-track when it comes to civil rights?


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14 Aug 2015, 4:31 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
People should have a right to discriminate against whomever they want to, and to be as bigoted as they want, under any circumstances. Let them face the consequences of their actions.


Why?...and having that right greatly diminishes any consequences, as that would mean they'd have the support of the state so to speak. If it becomes perfectly acceptable to refuse service to black people for instance like the 'good old days' and this is supported by legislation how will businesses refusing said service have any consequences? This is BS, I wish there weren't so many authoritarians and people who support turning back civil rights because they think everyone having equal rights that are protected is some kind of horrid injustice on this site.


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14 Aug 2015, 5:14 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I am not advocating based on anyone's look or religion but some of these sellers get vibes off people and they don't want to sell something yet they have to because of fear of being sued. They should be protected. Besides, it's not the government infringing here. It's the owner of a private entity. So, don't they have the right to refuse service? They should. And I am not advocating refusal for trivial reasons and for trivial things.


Do mean legally? Or morally?

Legally a private business cannot refuse service based upon race. My understanding is that they cant do that based upon religion either. Not since 1964. So you're advocating rolling back the civil rights movement (or big part of it).

Some folks are starting a trend to do just that based on libertarian grounds. Allow businesses to discriminate by race etc.. That's a whole nother can of worms.

Im not clear why this gun store wants to be "Muslim free". If the owner just hates brown skinned towelheads then that's not a compelling reason for his action to my mind. But if he's afraid Muslims might have terrorist connections and that's why he doesn't want to sell them guns then that has some logic. Though I doubt that he we would be sued yet, though in the future that might be legally possible.

Actually I didn't read your whole post before responding. LOL.
Yeah- a drinking establishment, or liquor store, has the right to refuse your business if you look like you're already bombed. Stuff like that is allowed legally (and is morally fine IMHO).


I agree, refusing Muslims in particular violates the law because of religious discrimination but what I am talking about specifically is the idea someone reserves the right to refuse business and is not required to give a reason so no one knows why they are refusing but them and if there's no proof of why they refuse the business, you can't accuse them of any crime. Evidence must exist for a crime to be prosecuted.
An example would be some angry guy comes in, wants to buy a gun, is cussing and saying under his breathe, "I'm gonna get even with that rotten SOB if it's the last thing I do!" The business owner says, sir you are going to have to leave the premises without ever selling him anything and/or calls the cops because he made a threat. If he's a Muslim, so what? It's what he said and how he was acting that caused the business owner to determine he wasn't going to sell him anything to be used in a possible commission of a crime. Or, he could be a disgruntled office worker. It could be someone who is angry at their spouse over a custody battle. The business owner hears stuff he doesn't like so he decides he will refuse to sell. The government isn't infringing on anyone's rights, it's the business owner, so how does it violate any constitution?


Well...that would be like the drunk going into a bar. Its not illegal (AIK) , nor (IMO) immoral for a business owner to use his own discretion, and to refuse to sell the guy a gun if the guy is foaming at the mouth, and acts and talks like he is about to commit murder.



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14 Aug 2015, 5:19 pm

Soon they'll be forced to sell a gun to someone overtly and proudly announcing their intention to use it immediately to murder the seller.


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14 Aug 2015, 5:21 pm

Adamantium wrote:
What consequences?


Whatever they happen to be. It's their business.


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