latest study suggests once again that democracy is fragile

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It seems most people do not truly understand what democracy is. A true democracy tries to accommodate all citizens through a process of compromise and consensus. Democracy is not the majority shoving its will down the minorities throat.

by that definition ours would seem to be a false democracy then.

The DNC isn't "leftist". They are center-right at best. That is if you look at actual policies instead of believing rhetoric. Also, SJWs are not the whole of the left. They are a faction.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. A lot of people had developed a very lazy whiggish interpretation of history that bordered on religious delusion in recent decades that couldn't be more wrong, there is a big difference optimism and utopianism which had blinded them to reality. The saying Obama likes so much 'the arc of the moral universe is long but bends towards justice' is nonsense dogma, human progress is not a linear thing and it is not an evolution that occurs naturally on its own. Our civilization has to vigilantly guard what we have or it may be lost forever as all have before us, it is not our responsibility nor can we succeed in taming the wilderness that is outside our walls. There are more than 7 billion people on this planet, the idea that you can force them all to be the same and get along is a joke. Worse than a joke, this utopianism has always been the source of the greatest evils in history as it is the people that wish to create their own heaven's on earth that create our hell. The establishment has embedded and entrenched itself in the current global world order, democracy to these people is just the oligarchy hedging its bets and pretending give the public a real choice when there is none. Seeing how shaken the slavers are I think I can tell you what represents real change and a challenge to the status quo.

The biggest threat doesn't come from the outside "wilderness". It comes from within. I think your extreme pessimistic view of human nature is often used as a cover for unrestrained tribalism and selfishness.

I don't see a failure of utopianism in America. I see people constantly kicking themselves in the teeth by voting against their own interest over and over again. I also don't believe a global world order exists. Even if it did exist, it doesn't make sense that it would be some sinister plot. I just don't see the motive. The oligarchy simply does not give a s**t about ordinary people. They see the ordinary American working in a factory the same as they see the ordinary Bangladeshi working in a sweat shop. We are all equally peasants. There is no sinister comic-book supervillain coming up with plans to destroy civilization. We do it to ourselves.

Last edited by marshall on 02 Dec 2016, 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

we have met the enemy, and he is us.

People just keep voting against their own interests, meaning what? Who should they be voting for? Do you think their candidate would be allowed to win? I think when somebody says another person is voting against their own interests what they're really saying is they are voting against their interests. I think I have a fairly realistic view of things and I'd say I'm feeling more optimistic in regards politics and this country than I ever have been.

I suppose you could call me a nationalist and I believe the state gains its legitimacy by making my life better, is that tribalism and selfishness in your eyes? I agree that we do these things to ourselves which is why we are lucky enough to control our own destiny as a country, there is no reason for things to be the way they are and we're not victims of history so there is no reason to accept the status quo. America isn't great because it's 'good', it was great because it had created the most prosperous civilization in human history and that civilization wants it's interests served. You tell me this isn't a comic book but you expect the state to act as a superhero? I don't understand, people vote against their own interests but they're selfish too? There doesn't have to be an organized well thought out devious plan, just a few thoughtless devious people which there is no shortage of. The motivation of it is self interest, the rich and powerful want to stay rich and powerful.

i really need some chocolate ice cream right now! [IOW this is depressing]

I don't think our interests are different, but I don't understand your optimism when Trump has decided to hire mostly far-right Reagan-brow-beating establishment Republicans to his administration. Betsy Devos? WTF! Anti-establishment my ass! What does more tax cuts / deregulation and tired Reaganomics have to do with nationalism anyways? All he's going to do is blow up the deficit once more.


No. Tribalism is the belief that the US is worse off because of others. We allowed corporations to ship jobs overseas. The Republicans never gave a f**k, and Trump certainly doesn't give a f**k. Certainly never did in the past. He's just a narcissist. He loves having power. That's it as far as his beliefs go. He'll just be another puppet of the establishment, like GWB was. The vultures are just waiting to stick their hands up his ass and wave him around.


Exactly what is it you want to be different? This is something that's never made sense to me. "Make America Great Again" is just as empty as "Hope and Change". Standing around changing "USA USA USA" isn't going to make people's lives better. It's just empty emotionalism. What is it that's broken and what policies are going to fix it? So far I haven't seen anything substantial from Trump.


How did that happen though? I really don't think it happened because Americans are inherently better than everyone else. We had a lot of economic leverage due to the outcome of WWII and then we also had strong organized labor. That is all gone and isn't coming back no matter how much we chant "USA USA USA" and deport illegal immigrants.


I get the comic book villain impression from listening to Alex Jones and his supporters. Your constant talk of "globalists" makes me think you're a fan of him.

As for nationalism and selfishness, what we have in the US is nationalism-lite. I look at nationalism in other places, like here in Turkey, and believe me it is UGLY. There is this might-makes-right mentality and total disregard for the rights of other nations and ethnic groups. "Selfish" is the mildest word I can use to describe it. It just scares me to see the US going down that kind of path.

Better than the immediate alternative in Hillary, better than Obama, better than all the other Republican candidates besides Rand Paul who wasn't his father, perhaps Democrats should of took Jim Webb more seriously. I am happy with Trump's transition, he's seems more the president now than Obama. Trump has shown a marked difference in his foreign policy and has been loyal to the people that elected him, I am confident he will name competent judges who will abide by the constitution and am encouraged by the prospects of him actually being able implement his agenda. I see Trump as a pragmatist who revels in deal making, I do not think he's an ideologue or partisan and will be able to work across the aisle. I think Trump projects confidence and strength, perhaps there is more power in just that than people realize. Animal spirits? I've always said there was an order to the chaos and that Trump is highly skilled in psychological warfare, he beat the establishment at their own rigged game.

What foreign policy? Trump wants to hire David Patraeus, the idiot who said US should arm Al Qaeda to fight Assad and ISIS.