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Kraichgauer
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05 Jun 2019, 10:29 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
There's lots of people from other countries obviously trolling and trying to influence Americans. As for how many are doing so covertly or whatever else, that's hard to say since it seems only Russians are being scrutinized. As for those in other countries trolling and influencing Americans being hostile towards America, there are many. But only Russians are problem. All others are okiedokie


The only country other than Russia influencing American politics is possibly China, but I have yet to see anything close to what Putin did.
Sure, there are people in other countries who express their opinions, but they're hardly part of some grand intelligence scheme to undermine American democracy.
If it's provable that any other country is directing intelligence operations against the US, then actions should be taken against them, too. And even if true, that hardly makes what the Russians did any less reprehensible.


There are many people from other countries putting out political memes and tweets etc aimed at Americans, and Americans are being trolled and influenced by that as much as what Russians are putting out. Why are you excusing others who are trolling and influencing Americans? There are plenty of cyber bad guys and nefarious organizations operating in other countries.


There is a significant difference between the actions of individuals and the actions of governments. And I have seen no evidence that anyone else has meant to cause so much damage to our society as Russia did with their cyber warfare. That's what makes what the Russians did so much worse.


So that makes it okay for everyone else?


I'd rather they didn't. But I also would prefer people not to drive drunk, but it's still preferable to drive drunk and not kill people to driving drunk and killing said people. Bad example, I know.
Anyhow, those others are not doing the same harm as Russia. Just because others have done it doesn't justify Russia getting away with it, for reasons already stated.


It's not a matter of justifying Russia, it's a matter of it not being acknowledged that trolling and attempting to influence Americans comes out of other countries, which it does.


Again, not with the intent of castrating America, which is Russia's intent.


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Aspiegaming
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05 Jun 2019, 10:59 am

I think Russia's never forgiven us for beating them in the cold war and so they're getting revenge through trolling and disinformation campaigns.


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05 Jun 2019, 11:05 am

The first thing about this is that Russia is simply doing with the United States of America has been doing in many countries (especially Central and South America) for many years. We are not mad for what they are doing, we are mad that they are using our own weapons against us and it is working. Hell, the USA has been doing this to Russia for years via Radio America.

The reason this works is that we have an education system which teaches students to accept what the authority is telling them rather than doing research to find the truth. As long as our population is taught to be spoon fed information, this tactic will continue to work.



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05 Jun 2019, 12:36 pm

Aspiegaming wrote:
I think Russia's never forgiven us for beating them in the cold war and so they're getting revenge through trolling and disinformation campaigns.


That was the Soviet Union. I think that's why people believe the lunatic conspiracy theories about Russia, because they see no difference between them and the Soviets. The irony is that the US is turning into a Soviet/fascist like state with the collusion between the intelligence agencies, politicians and the media and shutting down dissent etc


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05 Jun 2019, 12:56 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Russians need to be banned from the internet.

All those from other countries trolling and trying to influence Americans are welcome to continue.


What other country is waging covert cyber warfare against America?

Probably every country that can is using the internet to influence America. And we do the same.


But with detrimental intent like the Russians?

Probably, but those other countries we victimize don’t publicize it they try an get even. Even before the internet there were plenty of documented instances where we tried to destabilize other countries. The internet is another means of doing this.


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Kraichgauer
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05 Jun 2019, 5:51 pm

Sure, America should not have used black ops to interfere with other countries. That said, that's hardly reason to sit back and let it happen, just because someone else thinks we as a country have it coming for past sins.


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05 Jun 2019, 10:16 pm

Oh for God's sake, is there ANYTHING that those pesky, dastardly Russkies are NOT responsible for? What racist garbage! :evil:



Lintar
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05 Jun 2019, 10:19 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Sure, America should not have used black ops to interfere with other countries. That said, that's hardly reason to sit back and let it happen, just because someone else thinks we as a country have it coming for past sins.


Don't tell me you actually believe this crap. Speaking of 'electoral interference', did you know that this is precisely what the U.S. did to Russia back in 1996? See here, for just one article (out of many) on the matter:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nald-trump

There is absolutely nothing I hate more than rank hypocrisy (apart from, perhaps, dishonesty).



Lintar
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05 Jun 2019, 10:24 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
That was the Soviet Union. I think that's why people believe the lunatic conspiracy theories about Russia, because they see no difference between them and the Soviets. The irony is that the US is turning into a Soviet/fascist like state with the collusion between the intelligence agencies, politicians and the media and shutting down dissent etc


Well of course. I've noticed that the idiots who believe stories like this seem not to be aware of the fact that the USSR no longer exists, and hasn't since the end of 1991. They still believe the Cold War is on, and stronger than ever. They need to wake up and realise that we are now in the 21st century, and that the 20th ended a while ago now. Then again, maybe they're just a bunch of psychopathic war-mongers who love the idea of death, and simply cannot let go of the idea of having an ideological enemy to demonise.



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05 Jun 2019, 10:30 pm

demeus wrote:
The reason this works is that we have an education system which teaches students to accept what the authority is telling them rather than doing research to find the truth. As long as our population is taught to be spoon fed information, this tactic will continue to work.


It's not entirely the fault of the 'authorities' though, especially since we seem to have a population that is just too damned lazy to ever bother questioning what they are being told and do their own research, in combination with the deadening effect on the mind that modern-day communications technologies have (ex. 'social media', which isn't at all very social). Far too many people just do not seem to be motivated enough to uncover truths (many of which are rather uncomfortable), and prefer comforting lies. It's disgusting, depressing, shameful and inexcusable, but that seems to be the way it is.



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05 Jun 2019, 10:34 pm

Aspiegaming wrote:
I think Russia's never forgiven us for beating them in the cold war and so they're getting revenge through trolling and disinformation campaigns.


Actually, you didn't "beat them" in the Cold War. The Cold War ended because the C.P.S.U. was infiltrated by people (like Gorbachev and Yeltsin) who no longer believed in the system, and did all they could to bring it down. Yes, I understand it was more complex than this, but I'm not prepared to write a book about it here.



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05 Jun 2019, 10:47 pm

Lintar wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Sure, America should not have used black ops to interfere with other countries. That said, that's hardly reason to sit back and let it happen, just because someone else thinks we as a country have it coming for past sins.


Don't tell me you actually believe this crap. Speaking of 'electoral interference', did you know that this is precisely what the U.S. did to Russia back in 1996? See here, for just one article (out of many) on the matter:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nald-trump

There is absolutely nothing I hate more than rank hypocrisy (apart from, perhaps, dishonesty).


So I'm supposed to just sit back and contentedly let the Russians interfere with our elections? Well, I'm not.
If what's good for the goose is good for the gander, maybe then Australian Aborigines can hunt down and eat white Australians (yes, there was one of your officers who hunted, shot, butchered, cooked, and ate native Australians because he had an appreciation for chimpanzee meat while in Africa, and reasoned said natives were no more human than chimps). So, how about it!?!?
And absolutely no one in the US believes the Russian Federation is the same as the USSR. The problem lies entirely with Putin who wants to bring back Russia's glory days.


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EzraS
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06 Jun 2019, 12:21 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
There's lots of people from other countries obviously trolling and trying to influence Americans. As for how many are doing so covertly or whatever else, that's hard to say since it seems only Russians are being scrutinized. As for those in other countries trolling and influencing Americans being hostile towards America, there are many. But only Russians are problem. All others are okiedokie


The only country other than Russia influencing American politics is possibly China, but I have yet to see anything close to what Putin did.
Sure, there are people in other countries who express their opinions, but they're hardly part of some grand intelligence scheme to undermine American democracy.
If it's provable that any other country is directing intelligence operations against the US, then actions should be taken against them, too. And even if true, that hardly makes what the Russians did any less reprehensible.


There are many people from other countries putting out political memes and tweets etc aimed at Americans, and Americans are being trolled and influenced by that as much as what Russians are putting out. Why are you excusing others who are trolling and influencing Americans? There are plenty of cyber bad guys and nefarious organizations operating in other countries.



There is a significant difference between the actions of individuals and the actions of governments. And I have seen no evidence that anyone else has meant to cause so much damage to our society as Russia did with their cyber warfare. That's what makes what the Russians did so much worse.


So that makes it okay for everyone else?


I'd rather they didn't. But I also would prefer people not to drive drunk, but it's still preferable to drive drunk and not kill people to driving drunk and killing said people. Bad example, I know.
Anyhow, those others are not doing the same harm as Russia. Just because others have done it doesn't justify Russia getting away with it, for reasons already stated.


It's not a matter of justifying Russia, it's a matter of it not being acknowledged that trolling and attempting to influence Americans comes out of other countries, which it does.


Again, not with the intent of castrating America, which is Russia's intent.


Why wouldn't that be their intent since they're using the same methods?



Kraichgauer
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06 Jun 2019, 12:37 am

EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
EzraS wrote:
There's lots of people from other countries obviously trolling and trying to influence Americans. As for how many are doing so covertly or whatever else, that's hard to say since it seems only Russians are being scrutinized. As for those in other countries trolling and influencing Americans being hostile towards America, there are many. But only Russians are problem. All others are okiedokie


The only country other than Russia influencing American politics is possibly China, but I have yet to see anything close to what Putin did.
Sure, there are people in other countries who express their opinions, but they're hardly part of some grand intelligence scheme to undermine American democracy.
If it's provable that any other country is directing intelligence operations against the US, then actions should be taken against them, too. And even if true, that hardly makes what the Russians did any less reprehensible.


There are many people from other countries putting out political memes and tweets etc aimed at Americans, and Americans are being trolled and influenced by that as much as what Russians are putting out. Why are you excusing others who are trolling and influencing Americans? There are plenty of cyber bad guys and nefarious organizations operating in other countries.



There is a significant difference between the actions of individuals and the actions of governments. And I have seen no evidence that anyone else has meant to cause so much damage to our society as Russia did with their cyber warfare. That's what makes what the Russians did so much worse.


So that makes it okay for everyone else?


I'd rather they didn't. But I also would prefer people not to drive drunk, but it's still preferable to drive drunk and not kill people to driving drunk and killing said people. Bad example, I know.
Anyhow, those others are not doing the same harm as Russia. Just because others have done it doesn't justify Russia getting away with it, for reasons already stated.


It's not a matter of justifying Russia, it's a matter of it not being acknowledged that trolling and attempting to influence Americans comes out of other countries, which it does.


Again, not with the intent of castrating America, which is Russia's intent.


Why wouldn't that be their intent since they're using the same methods?


Even if any of them bare us any such ill will, it hasn't been anywhere close to what the Russians have done. And just who else supposedly has been carrying out the same sort of cyber warfare other than the Russians?


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EzraS
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06 Jun 2019, 1:42 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Even if any of them bare us any such ill will, it hasn't been anywhere close to what the Russians have done. And just who else supposedly has been carrying out the same sort of cyber warfare other than the Russians?


Whoever else has acess to the internet and the ability to post stuff on social media. That's what the bulk of the so called cyber warfare consists of.

Basically the modern day version of dropping propaganda leaflets. The difference is these days everyone all over the world is dropping them via the internet.



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06 Jun 2019, 9:58 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Lintar wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Sure, America should not have used black ops to interfere with other countries. That said, that's hardly reason to sit back and let it happen, just because someone else thinks we as a country have it coming for past sins.


Don't tell me you actually believe this crap. Speaking of 'electoral interference', did you know that this is precisely what the U.S. did to Russia back in 1996? See here, for just one article (out of many) on the matter:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... nald-trump

There is absolutely nothing I hate more than rank hypocrisy (apart from, perhaps, dishonesty).


So I'm supposed to just sit back and contentedly let the Russians interfere with our elections? Well, I'm not.
If what's good for the goose is good for the gander, maybe then Australian Aborigines can hunt down and eat white Australians (yes, there was one of your officers who hunted, shot, butchered, cooked, and ate native Australians because he had an appreciation for chimpanzee meat while in Africa, and reasoned said natives were no more human than chimps). So, how about it!?!?
And absolutely no one in the US believes the Russian Federation is the same as the USSR. The problem lies entirely with Putin who wants to bring back Russia's glory days.


What the devil is this deranged rant? Unless you are someone senior within your own government, there actually is nothing that you can do to prevent something like what has been alleged to have occurred (i.e. 'election meddling'). Where is the actual evidence that the government of Russia tampered with the result? There isn't any. Social media posts, trolling and creating false Twitter accounts do NOT constitute 'interference', in spite of what Hilary and her ilk may claim.
Why did you bring up Australian aborigines? I'm not even Australian, I was born in England. I don't like Putin either (yes, he's a horrible person who likes to imprison and murder his opponents), but since Russia isn't actually a democracy, you cannot blame the entire nation for what its rotten government gets up to. So he wants to bring back the "glory days". So what? Doesn't Donald want the same for his country? Doesn't he want to "make America great again"? What's wrong with that? Would you rather see a submissive Russia, as it was during the Yeltsin years when that pathetic drunk owed his position to the C.I.A.? We need a strong Russia (and China) to counter the rapacious expansionism of Imperial America.