Not so nice parents

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magz
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02 Jun 2019, 8:43 am

Meta-analysis is not improvising. It's systematic usage of mathematical tools to re-check previous interpretations of results, particularily in search for hidden biases.
It's done especially when experimental values seem divergent, as was the case with autism heritability research.

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cyberdad
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02 Jun 2019, 8:49 am

magz wrote:

Meta-analysis is improvising when you can't collect the data yourself, you rely on second hand information from disparate publications. The risk is comparing "apples with oranges" in terms of controlling internal validity of different studies.

magz
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02 Jun 2019, 9:00 am

cyberdad wrote:

Are you just trying to invalidate one of the standard science tools?

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shortfatbalduglyman
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02 Jun 2019, 5:08 pm

Ableism

Discrimination based on disability

ASPartOfMe
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02 Jun 2019, 6:38 pm

magz wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

I think a partial or total cure is going to happen probably via ABA or gene editing after birth than pre natal. I understand autism is very complicated but the determination and ensuing money as well as the popularity of the anti vaxx movement shows the desperation for a cure is there. I think a lot of the autism acceptance is reluctant and based on the understanding a cure is not close at this time.

That it why it behooves the ND movement to change their elitist ”Aspie” image. Do I think the image is fair, not at all, but it is what it is. They have got to show that just because a child is severely autistic, that does not mean the person is doomed to be a lifelong burden to parents and who will be so miserable the humane thing to do is to make sure it does not happen.

I suppose we - as the humanity - still understand too little of autism to be anywhere close to what you describe.
ABA "cure" is just teaching children to mask their symptoms, it's not cure at all.

My bet is the most we can do about a real autism cure would be (possibly multiple) treatments transitioning a severily autistic child to the "aspie" functioning.

ABA is about more then masking especially as it pertains to the very young. Our brains rapidly “wires” itself at an early age. Genetics and environment predetermines this. Autistic traits often do not become apparent until age 2. If one could intercept or deflect this natural process theoretically one could stop one from becoming autistic before it happens. This is why there is so much emphasis on early detection, why people get so excited at any news story claiming autism can be detected in infants

The Neuroscience of Changing Your Behavior

Quote:

The more often you perform an action or behave a certain way, the more it gets physically wired into your brain. This amazing adaptive quality of your brain is known as neuroplasticity.

Neuroplasticity is the ability of the brain to change its physical structure and function based on input from your experiences, behaviors, emotions, and even thoughts. It used to be believed that except for a few specific growth periods in childhood, the brain was pretty much fixed. Now, we know that’s not true. Your brain is capable of change until the day you die.

Your brain forms neuronal connections based on what you do repeatedly in your life – both good and bad

Diagnosing Infants 6 to 18 months of age

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When autism is caught in infancy, treatment can take full advantage of the young brain’s remarkable plasticity, or ability to adapt and change. If signs are detected by 18 months of age, intensive treatment, such as Applied Behavior Analysis, or ABA therapy, may help to reverse the symptoms of autism.
Currently the official diagnoses of autism aren't usually given until kids reach age 2 or 3. But parents can be on the lookout for signs much sooner. Early discovery and intervention can make a huge difference, so be aware of any delays your infant is experiencing and discuss them with your pediatrician.

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cyberdad
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03 Jun 2019, 2:22 am

magz wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

Are you just trying to invalidate one of the standard science tools?

It's a tool employed when there is a lack of resources to conduct a major primary study so improvisation is employed by sourcing data from "similar" studies. It's not the gold standard of research.

magz
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03 Jun 2019, 4:32 am

cyberdad wrote:

It's a tool employed when there is a lack of resources to conduct a major primary study so improvisation is employed by sourcing data from "similar" studies. It's not the gold standard of research.

Tell me you're kidding... or give a really strong source to support this statement.

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cyberdad
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03 Jun 2019, 4:53 am

Here's a seminal paper on meta-analysis by Hans Eysenk, one of the most famous psychologists in the area of intelligence and personality
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7950571

His critique of meta-analysis is accurate

magz
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03 Jun 2019, 5:21 am

Did you read the whole article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 8-0043.pdf or just the abstract?

The article comes from quite an interesting time when psychologists were starting to use scientific tools for psychology but did not yet developed scientifically rigurous methods of aquiring data.

This is taken into account in modern metaanalytical studies.

Good critique in science often leads to improvement. It happened here.

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eikonabridge
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03 Jun 2019, 8:41 am

magz wrote:

Could you please link the studies?
Because the ones I read concluded that the broader definition of autism, the higher correlation to genetics.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4996332/

There is genetics, and there is epigenetics.

https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/twin-study-finds-epigenetic-imprint-of-autism-traits/

Frankly, given sufficient keywords, it is YOUR responsibility to find the references, especially for such a well-known subject. Otherwise you don't qualify as a scientist. Do you see me asking for references?

You may want to take a look at my "orchestra model" of autism. It illustrates the polygenic nature of autism and the effect of epigenetics.

https://wrongplanet.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=361583&start=35

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Last edited by eikonabridge on 03 Jun 2019, 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

magz
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03 Jun 2019, 8:48 am

When someone says "scientists say" or "research shows", I ask for actual link to the publication.
If "being given sufficient keywords" was supposed to be enough, what would we need references for?
Do you really think of it as unreasonable?
If someone pointed to a study that escaped my attention, I would be more than happy!

By the way, the study you linked is not in disagreement with what I have digged, as they measure particular autism traits - speech delay and communicative behaviors - that may be not present in BAP.

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cyberdad
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04 Jun 2019, 1:47 am

I think what Eikonabridge is trying to say Magz is that it's your responsibility to check the scientific validity of meta-analysis rather than blindly accepting it because it's been published in a journal.

Journals also accept case studies, qualitative research, review articles and opinion pieces that doesn't mean they all have the same level of scholarship. I know about flaws in Meta-analyses because I have been a researcher in my past. They have problems with internal and external validity. The findings meta-analysis are only mean't to be a preliminary work in progress (not proof) and require further research ideally with primary data to properly quantify any predictive models generated the first time.

magz
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04 Jun 2019, 3:58 am

We got way too far off topic.

I linked one article, with the metaanalysys, because it takes the most data together and it's recent. Wanna other publications if you don't like metaanalyses?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5818813/
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/fu ... .161.3.539
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaps ... ct/1107328

It was my response to your

cyberdad wrote:

The problem for autism is that identical twin studies have demonstrated that one twin can have identical genes but be nuerotypical whereas the other twin can be severely autistic.

I gave my best, most recent knowledge on twin studies on autism and their results:
The broader definition of autism, the higher influence of genetic factor.

So, if one day a genetic test for autism is created, it most likely wouldn't be able to tell severe autism from Asperger's from BAP.

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cyberdad
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04 Jun 2019, 5:01 am

magz wrote:

I think this is likely that when/if genes are mapped for autism that parents will probably opt to terminate regardless because of the lottery of ending up with a child who will never be normal in their eyes.

magz
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04 Jun 2019, 5:12 am

cyberdad wrote:

magz wrote:

I would call it a very consumptionist attitude towards parenting.

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cyberdad
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04 Jun 2019, 5:14 am

magz wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

magz wrote:

I would call it a very consumptionist attitude towards parenting.

Tell that to the 95% of parents who terminate a downs syndrome baby when they get their amniocentesis results

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