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TwilightPrincess
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30 Oct 2023, 10:22 am

MaxE wrote:
I think recent threats to Jews are more troubling than threats to Muslims, because anti-Muslim sentiment is broad but shallow, knee-jerk in nature, mostly on the part of people who are basically stupid, and will probably diminish over time. Anti-Jewish threats include those from well-organized actors who have pursued their agenda across generations. The Decolonization Narrative is an example of one facet of this entrenched phenomenon.

My take is very different on this topic. Islamophobia runs very deep in America. It's like a festering wound (based largely on ignorance) that has never fully healed although it certainly existed before 9/11. It's inconsequential whether it's occurred for generations or not although it certainly has. In any event, those who are victims of hate crimes whether Jewish or Muslim aren't going to feel any less hurt or victimized if the crimes are happening less overall in their specific demographic.

I don't feel more for one group than another. Certain parts of the country are probably more Islamophobic or antisemitic than others. In any event, it's ALL troubling.



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30 Oct 2023, 10:30 am

Right after 9/11 people were riding around with slogans written on vehicles that said , “Death to all towel heads.”
No way could you ride around with a slogan that said , “ Death to all Catholics or Jews.”


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TwilightPrincess
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30 Oct 2023, 10:33 am

Misslizard wrote:
Right after 9/11 people were riding around with slogans written on vehicles that said , “Death to all towel heads.”
No way could you ride around with a slogan that said , “ Death to all Catholics or Jews.”

Yeah, even now, it seems like prejudice is tolerated towards Muslims, Arabs (usually the Western interpretation of that word), etc. that wouldn't be tolerated towards other groups, not that I really want to go there.

The point is that Islamophobia and racism associated with it runs very deep although I suppose this is off-topic.

Blowback, whether it occurs to Jews or Muslims (etc.), is awful.



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30 Oct 2023, 11:23 am

Readydaer wrote:
didn't Hamas offer to release the hostages once that puppet state with state-of-the-art weapons and billions of dollars in western backing for their genocide striked back against a desperate Palestine?

people forget that Israel from the beginning should never have been there.

Worldwide demonstrations with tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people with signs nnand chants of “From River to Sea, Palestine will be free” is not an indication that it is forgotten.

There are plenty of threads and attention being given to the plight of innocent Palestinians caught up in this war and in general. This thread is not about them. There is no argument that the plight of innocent Palestinians is way worse then the blowback innocent Jews in America and Europe is getting now. That does not mean the blowback should be ignored.


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Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 30 Oct 2023, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

ASPartOfMe
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30 Oct 2023, 11:29 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Right after 9/11 people were riding around with slogans written on vehicles that said , “Death to all towel heads.”
No way could you ride around with a slogan that said , “ Death to all Catholics or Jews.”

Yeah, even now, it seems like prejudice is tolerated towards Muslims, Arabs (usually the Western interpretation of that word), etc. that wouldn't be tolerated towards other groups, not that I really want to go there.

The point is that Islamophobia and racism associated with it runs very deep although I suppose this is off-topic.

Blowback, whether it occurs to Jews or Muslims (etc.), is awful.

Not off topic. The article I posted briefly mentioned derogatory posts towards Muslims. I have read several articles about Muslims feeling the most vulnerable since post 9/11.


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TwilightPrincess
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30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am

I usually try to avoid saying who has it worse. It reminds me of specific contentious debates in L&D.

It doesn’t mean much on an individual level. If I experienced a hate crime as a Jewish or Muslim person, the fact that my group supposedly experiences less blowback than the other wouldn’t make me feel any better. It’s all awful.



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30 Oct 2023, 11:38 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
MaxE wrote:
I think recent threats to Jews are more troubling than threats to Muslims, because anti-Muslim sentiment is broad but shallow, knee-jerk in nature, mostly on the part of people who are basically stupid, and will probably diminish over time. Anti-Jewish threats include those from well-organized actors who have pursued their agenda across generations. The Decolonization Narrative is an example of one facet of this entrenched phenomenon.

My take is very different on this topic. Islamophobia runs very deep in America. It's like a festering wound (based largely on ignorance) that has never fully healed although it certainly existed before 9/11. It's inconsequential whether it's occurred for generations or not although it certainly has. In any event, those who are victims of hate crimes whether Jewish or Muslim aren't going to feel any less hurt or victimized if the crimes are happening less overall in their specific demographic.

I don't feel more for one group than another. Certain parts of the country are probably more Islamophobic or antisemitic than others. In any event, it's ALL troubling.

Please consider everything I've said so far, also this posted by @Jono:

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Apparently in London, antisemitism increased 1350% due to the war compared to an increase of only 140% in Islamophobia:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2023/o ... r-met-says


Nobody here wants to invalidate the Islamic experience in the Christian West (to borrow your usual vocabulary). I said that I think the rise in Antisemitism, under these circumstances, is more concerning at the moment, but I have no illusions about getting you to agree.


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30 Oct 2023, 11:44 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
I usually try to avoid saying who has it worse. It reminds me of specific contentious debates in L&D.

It doesn’t mean much on an individual level. If I experienced a hate crime as a Jewish or Muslim person, the fact that my group supposedly experiences less blowback than the other wouldn’t make me feel any better. It’s all awful.

OK, I'll say it. In recent decades, Muslims in North America have suffered way more prejudice than Jews. In case that needs to be pointed out.


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30 Oct 2023, 11:46 am

^^ I don’t think I ever used the phrase “Christian West.”

If I were the mother of the 6 year old boy who was murdered for being Muslim, the fact that my group supposedly has it better, which I seriously doubt until sufficient evidence demonstrates it, wouldn’t make me feel any better.

I believe that blowback towards ALL individuals involved is concerning, but this specific thread is about Jews. It makes perfect sense that it would be devoted to antisemitism.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 30 Oct 2023, 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

MaxE
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30 Oct 2023, 11:49 am

TwilightPrincess wrote:
^^ I don’t think I ever used the phrase “Christian West.”

I believe that blowback towards ALL individuals involved is concerning, but this specific thread is about Jews. It makes sense that it would be devoted to antisemitism.

If I were the mother of the 6 year old boy who was murdered for being Muslim, the fact that my group supposedly has it better, which I seriously doubt until sufficient evidence demonstrates it, wouldn’t make me feel any better.

I believe I just said that Muslims face more prejudice. Of course as you said, that's not the topic of the thread.


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30 Oct 2023, 11:52 am

I’m sure you’ll recognize then that recent threats to Muslims are just as concerning as threats to Jews.

I’m glad we agree.



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30 Oct 2023, 12:03 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
I usually try to avoid saying who has it worse. It reminds me of specific contentious debates in L&D.

It doesn’t mean much on an individual level. If I experienced a hate crime as a Jewish or Muslim person, the fact that my group supposedly experiences less blowback than the other wouldn’t make me feel any better. It’s all awful.


The problem with whataboutism is that it is usually used to deflect from an inconvenient truths and is often a form of guilt by association victim blaming. But some things are more bad then others. We generally punish murderers more than purse snatchers. There are two problems with ignoring levels of bad. It is a form of denialism. Everything is bad with no distinction mentality ends up in the long run diminishing the bad of both the greater and lesser evil.

This is another dammed if you do damned if you don’t situation.


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30 Oct 2023, 12:08 pm

Claiming that one side has it worse often erroneously occurs when, through the use of confirmation bias, an individual fails to recognize the struggles of The Other.

I’m not saying that everything is equal in this situation, but at this point, the bad on both sides is considerable although, initially, I was with Israel despite its ongoing mistreatment of Palestine. I’m against Hamas, not Palestine, so I can’t condone genocide. The number of civilian casualties is staggering. Of course, others will see things differently.

Hamas is abhorrent but, as it stands, the IDF doesn’t seem good, either.

A child’s family isn’t going to feel any better if they were killed by the supposed good guys. The kid is dead either way. Death through air strikes is not always instantaneous, either. The death of a Palestinian child is just as horrible as the death of an Israeli child.

I was speaking more about victims of secondhand discrimination and hate crimes rather than those unwittingly caught up in the conflict. Jews and Muslims do experience a lot of both. It doesn’t appear to be significantly worse for one group than the other at this point.



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30 Oct 2023, 2:59 pm

Biden administration unveils new actions to combat antisemitism on college campuses

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The Biden administration is unveiling new actions Monday to combat antisemitism on college campuses after an “alarming” uptick in incidents since the Israel-Hamas war started in early October.

The departments of Justice and Homeland Security are partnering with campus law enforcement to track hate-related rhetoric online and provide federal resources to schools, according to the plan, which was shared exclusively with NBC News.

Dozens of cybersecurity and protective security experts at DHS have been detailed to engage with schools as they navigate incredibly tense environments, a White House official said.

Second gentleman Doug Emhoff and Education Secretary Miguel Cardona will meet with leading Jewish organizations to discuss the issue of growing antisemitism at colleges Monday, the official said.

The White House will also highlight how the Education Department's Office for Civil Rights has expedited an update of its complaint form. For the first time, it will make it clear that Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits certain forms of antisemitism and Islamophobia.

Later this week, Cardona and White House domestic policy adviser Neera Tanden will visit a college campus and hold a roundtable with Jewish students.

The Education Department has conducted site visits to gather more information about antisemitism at schools in San Francisco, St. Louis and Maine in recent weeks, with stops planned in New York City and Baltimore this week, the official said.

The White House recently expressed deep concern over “an extremely disturbing pattern of antisemitic messages” on college campuses since the Hamas terrorist attacks in Israel on Oct. 7, which left 1,400 people dead, including protests calling for the annihilation of the state of Israel or for genocide against the Jewish people.

“These grotesque sentiments and actions shock the conscience and turn the stomach. They also recall our commitment that can’t be forgotten: ‘never again,’” White House spokesman Andrew Bates said.

Just last month, two weeks before the Hamas terrorist attacks in Israel, the administration rolled out additional actions to combat antisemitism and Islamophobia more broadly across several federal agencies, citing Title VI of the Civil Rights Act.

For the first time, federal agencies clarified that the 1964 law prohibits “certain forms of antisemitic, Islamophobic, and related forms of discrimination in federally funded programs and activities.”

Efforts to “inform communities of their rights to be free from such discrimination and how to file complaints” will be accelerated under the new plan in the coming days, an administration official said.

The White House has faced significant criticism from Muslim and Arab American communities that it has not shown the same sort of attention to their concerns as it has to those of the Jewish community. In recent days, White House officials have increased their outreach. Biden called the family of a 6-year-old Palestinian American boy who was murdered in what authorities are calling a hate crime, and White House aides have reached out to Muslim, Arab and Palestinian American elected officials across the country.

Last week, the White House hosted a meeting with a handful of Muslim leaders, although it was done with little fanfare and no public announcement — in marked contrast with the meeting Biden held with Jewish leaders a few days after the Hamas attacks.

The White House has also gone after former President Donald Trump — who is the front-runner for the 2024 Republican presidential nomination — over his push for an expanded travel ban that would affect many people in Muslim nations, calling it “revolting and disgusting.”

In a statement over the weekend, Bates decried "disgraceful attacks against Arab Americans and the Muslim community," saying they "are the opposite of what we stand for as a country, and they must be forcefully condemned by all Americans who, like President Biden, believe in human dignity."

"The spike in Islamophobic incidents is a direct attack on the character of our nation," he added. "It’s critical that we give hate no safe harbor”


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31 Oct 2023, 1:09 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
45 antisemitism incidents on US university campuses in just three days
Quote:
A new report, published on Friday has unveiled a deeply troubling trend of antisemitism on university campuses across the United States: A staggering 45 reported antisemitism incidents occurred on university campuses in just three days, out of a total of 134 documented cases in the past two weeks. The report was conducted by the Diaspora Affairs and Combatting Antisemitism Ministry and Mosaic organization.

According to the report, this surge in antisemitic activity has "raised grave concerns about the safety and well-being of Jewish students across American campuses. These reported incidents span a range of concerning behaviors and expressions, providing a stark illustration of the scale of the issue and its impact."

Among the most disturbing incidents reported was at Cornell University, where a lecturer categorized as "antisemitic," described the Hamas's massacre during the celebration of Simchat Torah in western Negev settlements as an "exciting event." Meanwhile, at UC Davis in California, a lecturer took to social media to call for violence against Jewish students.

Hopefully these lecturers were fired? Advocating violence against civilians, and especially against students at the very college where one teaches, should never be tolerated IMO.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Quote:
According to a survey conducted by Hillel, a significant 74% of students revealed that the ongoing conflict in Israel has had a direct impact on their lives. Even more concerning, 40% of students admitted to feeling uncomfortable expressing their opinions in class and on campus since the outbreak of the conflict. Shockingly, 1 in 4 students reported experiencing violence or hatred on campus within the past 10 days, painting a grim picture of the hostile environment faced by some.

Moreover, a troubling 58% of students expressed feeling unsupported by their respective universities, raising questions about the responsibility of academic institutions to provide a safe and inclusive environment for all students.

All of this is very disturbing. However....

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Quote:
In response to these incidents, efforts to combat antisemitism on campus have been actively undertaken by organizations and student groups. Initiatives led by the Diaspora Affairs Ministry, in collaboration with Mosaic, Hillel, and Chabad, "have successfully thwarted numerous BDS (Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions) events on campuses," according to an official statement.

<SIGH!! !!>

Equating Judeophobia with anti-Zionism again, and using the former as an excuse to shut down the latter.

It might be reasonable to insist that anti-Zionist event organizers take more responsibility for discouraging hatred of Jews as people. However, students should have the right to organize events criticizing, even strongly criticizing, any government in the world.


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31 Oct 2023, 3:10 am

Readydaer wrote:
people forget that Israel from the beginning should never have been there.


Says who? Which article of the United Nations charter outlines which states do or don't have the right to exist? No such principle in international law exists, as far as I know.