18 Jan 2008, 4:35 pm
zendell wrote:
Everything hasn't been fully researched so no one can say for sure that the benefits exceed the risks. I hope this doesn't offend you but I think the Chief Vaccine Control Officer knows more about vaccines than you so I will agree with his opinion.
Offended? How dare you value the opinion of a renown virologist over that of a freshmen biology student!
But in spite of his qualifications I'm surprised you of all people took it at face value, especially considering your distrust of the government and large corporations that you explained from a previous topic. Had I offered an FDA member's opinion supporting vaccine you would have brushed it off as government-biased propaganda (I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you made your stance about this very clear).
But obviously there's something to what he's saying and I'm curious to why he feels that way, though that webpage only featured isolated quotes. Can you give me a reputable link explaining his viewpoint? And what vaccine in particular is he referencing? Are we just talking about certain vaccines against childhood developmental phases, because I seriously doubt a medical professional would make a blanket-statement condemning all vaccines (how do you think polio was eradicated?).
Last edited by Phagocyte on 18 Jan 2008, 8:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
18 Jan 2008, 8:12 pm
18 Jan 2008, 8:56 pm
18 Jan 2008, 9:45 pm
Phagocyte wrote:
zendell wrote:
Everything hasn't been fully researched so no one can say for sure that the benefits exceed the risks. I hope this doesn't offend you but I think the Chief Vaccine Control Officer knows more about vaccines than you so I will agree with his opinion.
Offended? How dare you value the opinion of a renown virologist over that of a freshmen biology student!
But in spite of his qualifications I'm surprised you of all people took it at face value, especially considering your distrust of the government and large corporations that you explained from a previous topic. Had I offered an FDA member's opinion supporting vaccine you would have brushed it off as government-biased propaganda (I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you made your stance about this very clear).
My reasoning is that it's wise to be skeptical of sources in which a conflict of interest exists. I don't have a specific distrust of government and large corporations. I'm always skeptical when the source has a motivation to deceive. If there is no conflict, I won't be skeptical. For example, GlaxoSmithKline's package insert for their Hepatitis B vaccines says it may cause autoimmune disorders such as Guillian-Barre syndrome. There's no reason to lie about that. I read that Dr. Morris was fired after saying the flu vaccine was ineffective. He's not echoing the FDA line, he's speaking out against it and that makes him more credible.
Phagocyte wrote:
But obviously there's something to what he's saying and I'm curious to why he feels that way, though that webpage only featured isolated quotes. Can you give me a reputable link explaining his viewpoint? And what vaccine in particular is he referencing? Are we just talking about certain vaccines against childhood developmental phases, because I seriously doubt a medical professional would make a blanket-statement condemning all vaccines (how do you think polio was eradicated?).
I was unable to find a good source for his quotes. A few studies referred to him speaking out against flu shots. Regarding vaccine issues I was able to find a good paper on it which stated:
Quote:
According to the records of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, from 1911 to 1935 the four leading causes of childhood deaths from infectious diseases in the U.S. were diphtheria, pertussis (whooping cough), scarlet fever, and measles. However, by 1945 the combined death rates from these causes had declined by 95 percent, before the implementation of mass immunization programs.
http://www.haciendapub.com/issues.html
http://www.haciendapub.com/issues.html
Asthma and allergies in 10 year olds (based on a study of 1,265 children):
asthma rate in vaccinated children - 23%
asthma rate in unvaccinated children - 0%
allergy rate in vaccinated children - 30%
allergy rate in unvaccinated children - 0%
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9345669
Looks like only vaccinated people suffer from asthma and allergies. I'm not risking a 30% chance of lifelong allergies to protect against rare diseases that already declined by 95% before vaccines were even introduced. Another study found that autistics and their mothers are more likely to suffer from allergies.
19 Jan 2008, 12:37 am
19 Jan 2008, 2:48 pm
19 Jan 2008, 2:53 pm
zendell, ask parents from a third world s**thole that don't have ACCESS to vaccines if they want to debate about a third of their children dying from easily avoided diseases. If you do, I'd suggest standing back aways... 
19 Jan 2008, 3:56 pm
AspieDave wrote:
zendell, ask parents from a third world s**thole that don't have ACCESS to vaccines if they want to debate about a third of their children dying from easily avoided diseases. If you do, I'd suggest standing back aways...
Why don't you look at the evidence? They're dying due to their living conditions. Poverty, lack of access to clean water, sanitation, etc. is the problem. Please explain how vaccines reduced these diseases by 95% BEFORE the vaccines even existed?
19 Jan 2008, 3:57 pm
AspieDave wrote:
zendell, ask parents from a third world s**thole that don't have ACCESS to vaccines if they want to debate about a third of their children dying from easily avoided diseases. If you do, I'd suggest standing back aways...
Why don't you look at the evidence? They're dying due to their living conditions. Poverty, lack of access to clean water, sanitation, etc. is the problem. Please explain how vaccines reduced these diseases by 95% BEFORE the vaccines even existed? I'm not trying to frustrate you, I just don't understand why you seem to reject science. I prefer scientific evidence over anecdotal reports from parents in third world countries.
19 Jan 2008, 4:03 pm
zendell wrote:
AspieDave wrote:
zendell, ask parents from a third world s**thole that don't have ACCESS to vaccines if they want to debate about a third of their children dying from easily avoided diseases. If you do, I'd suggest standing back aways...
Why don't you look at the evidence? They're dying due to their living conditions. Poverty, lack of access to clean water, sanitation, etc. is the problem. Please explain how vaccines reduced these diseases by 95% BEFORE the vaccines even existed? I'm not trying to frustrate you, I just don't understand why you seem to reject science. I prefer scientific evidence over anecdotal reports from parents in third world countries.
Um, no.
They're dying because they don't have vaccinations.
19 Jan 2008, 4:11 pm
19 Jan 2008, 4:39 pm
beau99 wrote:
zendell wrote:
AspieDave wrote:
zendell, ask parents from a third world s**thole that don't have ACCESS to vaccines if they want to debate about a third of their children dying from easily avoided diseases. If you do, I'd suggest standing back aways...
Why don't you look at the evidence? They're dying due to their living conditions. Poverty, lack of access to clean water, sanitation, etc. is the problem. Please explain how vaccines reduced these diseases by 95% BEFORE the vaccines even existed? I'm not trying to frustrate you, I just don't understand why you seem to reject science. I prefer scientific evidence over anecdotal reports from parents in third world countries.
Um, no.
They're dying because they don't have vaccinations.
That may be your opinion or what your employer has told you to write but I'll side with the scientific evidence. I haven't seen any scientific evidence to support the belief that they're dying due to a lack of vaccinations.
19 Jan 2008, 5:07 pm
19 Jan 2008, 5:24 pm
19 Jan 2008, 5:32 pm
19 Jan 2008, 5:33 pm
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