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iamnotaparakeet
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03 May 2008, 2:31 pm

CanyonWind wrote:
You didn't state a personal conclusion, so correct me if I am wrong about assuming you have one, but I will note that modern languages didn't get to be the way they are because they were deliberately designed in their present form by a creator.


Interesting qualification that even you have given.



monty
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03 May 2008, 2:34 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
The other evos should have corrected him on this then.


The man has a full time job as an astrophysicist, and he cranks out a book a year on various pop-science related topics. Since there is no 'Supreme Council of Evolutionists' that must grant the right to publish on the topic, he published. No sense in blaming science as a whole for the errant opinions of one person - lets put responsibility where it really belongs, on the people who formulate gee-whiz theories that aren't good science.



Most evidence does point to homosexuality being determined by developmental factors including the hormonal levels of the mother when the fetus is developing. From a scientific perspective, Autism, Aspergers, and homosexuality are all developmental patterns that are permanently stamped on some people's brain - not a lifestyle choice or moral failing.

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Neurosci Biobehav Rev. 2005;29(7):1057-66. Epub 2005 Apr 25.
The neurodevelopment of human sexual orientation.

One of the most enduring and controversial questions in the neuroscience of sexual behaviour surrounds the mechanisms which produce sexual attraction to either males or females. Here, evidence is reviewed which supports the proposal that sexual orientation in humans may be laid down in neural circuitry during early foetal development. Behaviour genetic investigations provide strong evidence for a heritable component to male and female sexual orientation. Linkage studies are partly suggestive of X-linked loci although candidate gene studies have produced null findings. Further evidence demonstrates a role for prenatal sex hormones which may influence the development of a putative network of sexual-orientation-related neural substrates. However, hormonal effects are often inconsistent and investigations rely heavily on 'proxy markers'. A consistent fraternal birth order effect in male sexual orientation also provides support for a model of maternal immunization processes affecting prenatal sexual differentiation. The notion that non-heterosexual preferences may reflect generalized neurodevelopmental perturbations is not supported by available data. These current theories have left little room for learning models of sexual orientation. Future investigations, across the neurosciences, should focus to elucidate the fundamental neural architecture underlying the target-specific direction of human sexual orientation, and their antecedents in developmental neurobiology.


Quote:
Psychoneuroendocrinology. 2005 May;30(4):382-91. Epub 2005 Jan 13.
Fluctuating asymmetry, second to fourth finger length ratios and human sexual orientation.


Sexual orientation in humans may be influenced by levels of prenatal sex steroids which canalise neurodevelopment along sex-typical (heterosexual) or sex-atypical (homosexual) lines. Some evidence for sexual-orientation-related differences in putative somatic markers of prenatal sex hormones supports this view. A competing theory asserts that human homosexuality is due to developmental instability (DI) because it represents a shift from the species-typical pattern of heterosexual orientation. Evidence for elevated rates of non-right handedness among homosexuals provides limited support for this account. The current study tested both theories by examining nine bilateral somatic traits in 120 healthy heterosexual and homosexual men and women in order to compute second to fourth finger length ratios (2D:4D), a measure ascribed to levels of prenatal sex steroids, and fluctuating asymmetry (FA), a measure of DI. Homosexual men and women had significantly lower right hand 2D:4D ratios (even after controlling for handedness, height and weight differences) in comparison to heterosexuals, but sexual orientation did not relate to composite FA scores. The findings constrain the number of possible neurodevelopmental pathways responsible for sexual orientation in humans.



Quote:
Psychiatr Genet. 1998 Summer;8(2):121-6.Links
X-chromosome workshop.

Researchers presented results of ongoing research to the X-chromosome workshop of the Fifth World Congress on Psychiatric Genetics, covering a wide range of disorders: X-linked infantile spasms; a complex phenotype associated with deletions of Xp11; male homosexuality; degree of handedness; bipolar affective disorder; schizophrenia; childhood onset psychosis; and autism. This report summarizes the presentations, as well as reviewing previous studies. The focus of this report is on linkage findings for schizophrenia and bipolar disorder from a number of groups. For schizophrenia, low positive lod scores were obtained for markers DXS991 and DXS993 from two studies, although the sharing of alleles was greatest from brother-brother pairs in one study, and sister-sister in the other. Data from the Irish schizophrenia study was also submitted, with no strong evidence for linkage on the X chromosome. For bipolar disease, following the report of a Finnish family linked to Xq24-q27, the Columbia group reported some positive results for this region from 57 families, however, another group found no evidence for linkage to this region. Of interest, is the clustering of low positive linkage results that point to regions for possible further study.



I guess some of us are not too far from the dark ages, when schizophrenia and depression were explained terms of demonic possession. Biological explanations of sexual orientation make far more sense than theological ones.



iamnotaparakeet
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03 May 2008, 3:02 pm

Your rhetoric expresses your desired conclusion much more strongly then the quotes you attempt to use as evidence for your case. This would be a non sequitur to a degree.

I could research the similarities between Latin and Hebrew, but that doesn't make the research conclusive, or, even, valid for that matter.



monty
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03 May 2008, 3:19 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Your rhetoric expresses your desired conclusion much more strongly then the quotes you attempt to use as evidence for your case.


Yes, I could have posted several hundred abstracts and studies that found evidence that sexuality (like left-handedness and AS) is determined by biological factors. But even that probably would not have changed your opinion one iota. As an anti-evolutionist and anti-gay Biblical literalist, you are unable to adjust your belief structure in light of new information. Doesn't matter how much evidence is presented.

"One possible explanation for true-believer syndrome is that the belief satisfies an emotional need that is stronger than the need for the truth. Why some people have such a strong emotional need to believe in something that rational people recognize as false is perhaps unanswerable, but it is the way some people deal with cognitive dissonance." (http://www.skepdic.com/truebeliever.html)



iamnotaparakeet
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03 May 2008, 3:24 pm

monty wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Your rhetoric expresses your desired conclusion much more strongly then the quotes you attempt to use as evidence for your case.


Yes, I could have posted several hundred abstracts and studies that found evidence that sexuality (like left-handedness and AS) is determined by biological factors. But even that probably would not have changed your opinion one iota. As an anti-evolutionist and anti-gay Biblical literalist, you are unable to adjust your belief structure in light of new information. Doesn't matter how much evidence is presented.

"One possible explanation for true-believer syndrome is that the belief satisfies an emotional need that is stronger than the need for the truth. Why some people have such a strong emotional need to believe in something that rational people recognize as false is perhaps unanswerable, but it is the way some people deal with cognitive dissonance." (http://www.skepdic.com/truebeliever.html)


Ad hominem now? Interesting proof.



monty
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03 May 2008, 3:33 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Ad hominem now? Interesting proof.


Calling a crow a large black bird is not always an ad hominem fallacy. Your pattern of behavior here leads me to the conclusion that you are interested in promoting a particular ideological belief structure and that this precludes you from accepting the truth when the truth conflicts with that belief structure.

There is little reason to invest in a scientific discussion with you, as you routinely reject the scientific method whenever you feel like it. Those abstracts are actually for people that can evaluate new information and adjust their view of the world accordingly.



iamnotaparakeet
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03 May 2008, 3:39 pm

monty wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Ad hominem now? Interesting proof.


Calling a crow a large black bird is not always an ad hominem fallacy. Your pattern of behavior here leads me to the conclusion that you are interested in promoting a particular ideological belief structure and that this precludes you from accepting the truth when the truth conflicts with that belief structure.

There is little reason to invest in a scientific discussion with you, as you routinely reject the scientific method whenever you feel like it. Those abstracts are actually for people that can evaluate new information and adjust their view of the world accordingly.


Mas de mismo...



monty
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03 May 2008, 6:13 pm

Let's be honest - this is an asymmetrical situation. In the discussion of nature vs nurture determining sexual orientation, I am willing to accept all evidence. I think (like intelligence, lifespan, and other conditions, that both genes and environment play a role, although biology seems to play a dominant role with respect to what happens when puberty kicks in). You, on the other hand, have already determined what you believe, and no evidence to the contrary will be admitted. You have deep anti-scientific attitudes, and do not deserve the same treatment in a discussion as someone who does accept the scientific method.



iamnotaparakeet
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03 May 2008, 7:03 pm

monty wrote:
Let's be honest - this is an asymmetrical situation. In the discussion of nature vs nurture determining sexual orientation, I am willing to accept all evidence. I think (like intelligence, lifespan, and other conditions, that both genes and environment play a role, although biology seems to play a dominant role with respect to what happens when puberty kicks in). You, on the other hand, have already determined what you believe, and no evidence to the contrary will be admitted. You have deep anti-scientific attitudes, and do not deserve the same treatment in a discussion as someone who does accept the scientific method.


I accept and have practiced the scientific method... most of what you say about me probably applies to yourself. Just-so stories, unverifiable plausibilities, et cetera are not scientific and I don't accept them. Do yourself a favor and quit justifying your repugnant debate tactics.



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03 May 2008, 7:41 pm

The best explanation for the homosexual gene, IMHO, is the simplest one. Homosexuality among human beings is nature's brilliant solution to overbreeding. Not evolution per se, more like adaptation. Spontaneous mutation of the genes. Human DNA has amazing plasticity. :D



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03 May 2008, 7:47 pm

BTW monty, you're ragging on parakeet but I can see it's the pot calling the kettle black. You as well have beliefs to promote. Like parakeet, you've made up your mind about whatever and do not want to accept other beliefs.



iamnotaparakeet
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03 May 2008, 8:00 pm

slowmutant wrote:
BTW monty, you're ragging on parakeet but I can see it's the pot calling the kettle black. You as well have beliefs to promote. Like parakeet, you've made up your mind about whatever and do not want to accept other beliefs.


Yes, but to him they aren't "beliefs" but rather "established facts" probably accepted by people he respects for whatever the heck his personal reasons are.



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03 May 2008, 8:59 pm

This 'fredoneverything" is a perfect example of how creationists create arguments based on straw-men because of their ignorance of basic evolutionary biology. Very few biologists think black people are inherently less intelligent then other people anymore, those that do are generally right-wing ideologues such as Charles Murray (of The Bell Curve infamy and member of the neocon American Enterprise Institute).


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monty
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03 May 2008, 9:21 pm

slowmutant wrote:
The best explanation for the homosexual gene, IMHO, is the simplest one. Homosexuality among human beings is nature's brilliant solution to overbreeding. Not evolution per se, more like adaptation. Spontaneous mutation of the genes. Human DNA has amazing plasticity. :D


Your simple explanation requires that "nature" be capable of conscious thought and purpose. Like the statement "Nature abhors a vacuum" (natura abhorret a vacuo), this is an example of the pathetic fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathetic_fallacy

Such thinking was common in early ideas of ecological succession; things were said to go from simple to complex (ie, bare field to weeds to shrubs to climax community) as part of a pre-determined plan. The early communities were said to 'have a job to do' preparing for their successors, and they simply got out of the way when the soil was ready. Such thinking has given way to the realization that the communities seen are a result of competition between the species, and as a response to changing climate and disruption by fire and other events. Nature does not care if a particular species or ecosystem crashes.



CanyonWind
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03 May 2008, 10:53 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
CanyonWind wrote:
You didn't state a personal conclusion, so correct me if I am wrong about assuming you have one, but I will note that modern languages didn't get to be the way they are because they were deliberately designed in their present form by a creator.


Interesting qualification that even you have given.


I can't debate this because I have no idea what you're talking about, unless you're dictating to god what he is and is not allowed to do. Redneck phony christians do that a lot.

I can't figure out how god managed to operate the universe for fifteen billion years without you around to give him orders.

There's no point in you continuing your studies of linguistics. Some guy who identifies himself only as Fred says that all the people who have spent their lives studying linguistics don't know anything, so no point in considering the facts.

I'm sure he's right because he's got a Marine Corps T-shirt, big sunglasses and a 1950's biker hat. Not only that, he's smoking a big cigar.

See, I'm catching on. You made a convert. Hey, Charlie, throw all those fossils in the dumpster and put some fruit flavoring in the DNA gels. We don't need facts and logic anymore, we got iamnotaparakeet and his mentor Fred.


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03 May 2008, 10:57 pm

I believe nature is capable of conscious thought & purpose. What exactly is nature, anyway? Is it just a set of rules governing complex systems or is it something indefinable?

Is it inconceivable that a system as vast and complex as Earth itself might not possess a level of sentience?

Nature is, after all, extremely adaptive. An organism can adapt if it must. Species can adapt if they must. And the system which contains them all makes adjustments as well. An event of any significance always affects the larger system.

If nature is indifferent towards a species' survival, how would that species survive at all? No, I think nature cares about everybody, but clearly favours the strong. The survival of strength is a priniciple you can observe in any context, in the natural world or out of it. And on any scale, as well.