Happy Birhday Israel.

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See what I mean?

Is that not true, what I said? Time to call a rabbi, I think.

Does that mean that criticizing the Israeli state is the same as a critique of the Jewish religion?

Not necessarily, but state & religion are bound by culture.

Get your mind out of its murky waters.

Hating the Jews is hating the Jews,
whatever label you wish to put on it to make it sound more humane.
"Oh, I'm not against the Jews, Heavens no! I'm just against them have a safe homeland
after the Holocaust nearly wiped them out!"
And Hitler just wanted to purify his people, yada, yada, yada, blah, blah, blah...
You can put a good label on anything to make it sound honorable,
no matter how evil your true wish is.
Maybe you wish Hitler would have succeeded at his goal of killing them all off?
Don't be a coward -- admit it, if that's what you really think.

Last edited by Ragtime on 09 May 2008, 9:29 am, edited 5 times in total.

I don't want destruction as in 'blow it up', and I don't want the Israelis dead, by any means. I have some fantastic Jewish friends, and I love them dearly. I have nothing against Jews. But Israel in its present form is an illegal state who've wreaked havoc on an entire people for the past century or so, who are backed by some extremely shady groups and one of the most dangerous governments the world has ever seen. As Khan Sama said, I'm not against the Jews at all, I'm against zionism. And, again as he said, there are plenty of Jews who agree. Anti-Zionism is NOT Anti-Semitism. They are not to be confused.

Thus the jewish people are the jewish faith are the Israeli government. Thus any action taken by that government can be blamed upon the people, and reprisals subsequently made against the same, because they are all of the same faith, and therefore MUST be responsible for the actions of that faith and state as a whole.

Complete load of bollocks. Like all nations, secular or otherwise, most people are more interested in simply living their daily lives whilst not being oppressed, killed, tortured, shot at, or generally endangered. Most people have very little say in what their governments say or do on a day to day basis, so it is ludicrous to believe that they should be held directly responsible for every action that government takes. Yet this happens every minute of every day, worldwide. Fair? Course it isn't. Neccessary? Not really. Bland assumptions like "Israel as a nation and Judaism as a religion are the same thing" just exacerbate the situation.

The Palestinians had nothing to do with Hitler or the Nazi party. Your current president has more connections to the Nazi party. His grandfather, Prescott Bush, was the director and vice-chairman of the New York banking corporation, which funded the Nazi party from its founding till 1942. The New York banking corporation was shut down under the trade with the enemy act. You can read the Guardian's article about it here, I can assure you that this is fact and not a conspiracy theory.

Btw, I know a couple of Jews, they're decent people. None of us are wishing for any of their deaths, we just want this illegitimate state wiped off. We're not bloodthirsty mongrels. If we wanted them dead, we wouldn't have sheltered them for over 13 centuries.

Also, we don't hate the Jewish faith or any other faith. We just consider them as outdated & corrupt versions of Islam.

How so? Of the three monotheist religions, isn't Islam the most recent?

If a Jewish state was meant to be, fine. All I'm saying is that it could have been accomplished without committing atrocities against Palestine. If the Zionists wanted to insure the preservation of their people, it seems like there should have been a more peaceful and equitable way to go about it.

Questioning the decisions that certain government officials have made, which have resulted in human suffering, is not the same as hating an ethnic group.

Yes, and we consider them corrupt and outdated. Adam was the first man, the religion of monotheism, submission to one God ("Islam" literally translates to "submission") began with him. He was the first sinner too. In total, 124,000 prophets were selected on Earth by God, of which Adam was the first, and Muhammed was the last. Jesus, Moses, Abraham, David, etc, we all consider them as prophets. We believe that all other faiths in this world were initially Islam, and were later corrupted, and that Islam (as revealed to Muhammed) is the only religion that remains untouched. We believe that Islam always existed, from Adam till now. We believe that the day of judgement will arrive only when the last Muslim is killed.

How have these other religions been corrupted or by whom? Islam has remained free of this corruption because it has the uncontestable word of God?

Don't misunderstand, I mean no offense.

And I agree with you. This issue is a very complicated one. Both Jewish and Moslim people see that part of the world as theirs and to my way of thinking, neither should have exclusive control.

slowmutant, I am not offended at all. ^^

Allow me to explain. It's an accepted concept in almost all monotheistic religions, including the less populous ones such as Zoroastrianism, that there's a malicious creature, known as satan. In Islam, satan is a genie, made of smokeless fire, his name is Iblis, and he refused to bow down to Adam when God created him. As punishment, he was exiled to hell. He can, however, infiltrate our thoughts. His goal is to drag as many humans that he can into hell with him. As Adam sinned, all humans too have a decision between good and evil, heaven or hell.

We believe that Iblis did everything he can to corrupt the messages that God's messengers preached. For example, people started ancestor worship due to his influence. All the sins that exist in this world are there due to Iblis. Since Adam, Iblis has done whatever possible to lead people off the straight path, by telling them to worship the sun, worship the prophets as Gods, worship spirits, etc. As each prophet preached, a few centuries after his death, the whole message of Islam was corrupted, for social and political reasons. If you can recall, there were riots in Rome between Pagans, Manichaens, and Christians, out of which Christians were victorious. However, to end dissent, the councils of Nicaea were created, which introducted pagan aspects into Christianity, such as the trinity, holy communion, christmas, easter, etc. If you examine Christianity & Judaism closely, and compare them to the pagan religions practiced around the Mediterranean at that time, the similarities will shock you. Did you know that the cross of Christianity is an ancient pagan symbol of the sign of the Zodiac? It actually represents the crux constellation on which, every December 22-25, the sun "dies on a cross, remains dead for three days, and is then resurrected". However, the sun's resurrection is celebrated only on the Spring Equinox, or Easter, when the sun is in the highest position in the sky. Christianity is thus corrupted with worship of the sun. Likewise, Judaism also has pagan characteristics, such as blowing of the Ram's horn, which represents the age of Aries. I could go on and on, but the list will be too long, so I'll stick with these examples. As far as Islamic view is concerned, Iblis always played an indirect role in corrupting the message of Islam, and even attempted to do so with Muhammed (heard of the satanic verses?). However, he was unlucky with Muhammed, and thus, we Muslims believe that the Quran is pure and uncorrupted.

http://christianactionforisrael.org/ant ... bnazi.html

I know that anti-Israelites just love conspiracy theories, khazar origins, and holocaust denial. That link's something for them to read.