UK Student arrested ... for being honest

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Keith
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04 Apr 2009, 8:04 pm

I don't trust the police. To me they are the biggest gang member in the world.
1) Kidnap = Arrest
2) Speeding = No real skill
3) Murder = kill or be killed
4) Violence = Necessary Force

Come on... They are the biggest law breakers there are. I've looked at the specs of a police car, and I don't feel safe in the knowledge of the parts they use. Cheap tyres and no grip means waiting for an accident. Tyre profiles, too standard, comprise handling in a chase scenario. Anyone who understands the numbers on tyres will know what I mean



Dussel
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05 Apr 2009, 10:11 am

I am fare from being certain to which extent this story has to do with the facts and to which extent it is based on what may be could called the "journalistic standards" of the Daily Express.



Khan_Sama
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05 Apr 2009, 12:48 pm

After reading this, I've earned a profound respect for Indian police, who are extremely corrupt.

Last year, me and 3 other guys were caught smoking pot in public. We were taken to the police station, where we were given a stern lecture for 4 hours. At the time, I detested them for treating me roughly, but now, I have only the utmost respect for them.

Of course, regardless of Habeas Corpus, the police don't care here. If I keep quiet, I'll end up being tortured overnight. But that's only if I was accused of a major crime.



0_equals_true
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05 Apr 2009, 1:00 pm

jrknothead wrote:
psych wrote:
not directly related, but a good video nonetheless.

A (US) law professor explains why you should NEVER talk to the police under any circumstances, citing examples of innocent bystanders etc who got jailed for 'helping' the police.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?doc ... +It!&hl=en


This was an excellent video. I recommend everyone watch it and take to heart what is being said...

I thought it was good too. Especially a good example of a convincing smug lawyer :wink:

However there is some problems with it. Some crimes cannot be pinned unless there is a victim, who identifies as a victim. Even in the case of CCTV evidence (which is normally automatic no contest) of an assault, the prosecutors could convincingly argue that it was pre-arranged and/or consensual play. Therefore they could get of with a lighter sentence of antisocial behaviour.

When I was assaulted. I managed to run away a talk to police. They got a description quickly, and were able to search for them. There was a victim prior to that who decided not to press charges rather foolishly.

They had CCTV evidence (which I was aware of but obviously they were too stoned to notice), and also forensic from spit on my hair. They got 6 months for my assault and 4 months for the other guy who didn't come forward. I also had fine paid to me, and obviously the other guy didn't.

So not talking to police can also be foolish.

The second problem is what he is talking about also applies to talking to journalists, lawyers, or being called as a witness in a courtroom. Just because it is in a courtroom doesn't mean it cart be twisted over the cores of a trial.



0_equals_true
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05 Apr 2009, 1:06 pm

Khan_Sama wrote:
Of course, regardless of Habeas Corpus, the police don't care here. If I keep quiet, I'll end up being tortured overnight. But that's only if I was accused of a major crime.


What makes you think that won't happen?

Good luck with your respect. Maybe you should tell them you respect them when they are torturing you.



Dussel
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05 Apr 2009, 1:12 pm

Khan_Sama wrote:
Of course, regardless of Habeas Corpus, the police don't care here. If I keep quiet, I'll end up being tortured overnight. But that's only if I was accused of a major crime.


If you are a foreigner it is always in other country a good idea to have a copy of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963 by hand:


Quote:
Article 36
1.With a view to facilitating the exercise of consular functions relating to nationals of the sending State:
(a) consular officers shall be free to communicate with nationals of the sending State and to have
access to them. Nationals of the sending State shall have the same freedom with respect to
communication with and access to consular officers of the sending State;
(b) if he so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State shall, without delay, inform the
consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or
committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner. Any communication
addressed to the consular post by the person arrested, in prison, custody or detention shall be forwarded
by the said authorities without delay. The said authorities shall inform the person concerned without
delay of his rights under this subparagraph;
(c) consular officers shall have the right to visit a national of the sending State who is in prison,
custody or detention, to converse and correspond with him and to arrange for his legal representation.
They shall also have the right to visit any national of the sending State who is in prison, custody or
detention in their district in pursuance of a judgement. Nevertheless, consular officers shall refrain from
taking action on behalf of a national who is in prison, custody or detention if he expressly opposes such
action.


http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instru ... 2_1963.pdf

Referring to this convention can avoid minor trouble quite easily.



TallyMan
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05 Apr 2009, 1:25 pm

^ Quoting the law to police officers doesn't generally have a positive effect. They are more likely to be belligerent and prolong your unpleasant experience with them.


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Khan_Sama
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05 Apr 2009, 1:44 pm

Dussel wrote:
Khan_Sama wrote:
Of course, regardless of Habeas Corpus, the police don't care here. If I keep quiet, I'll end up being tortured overnight. But that's only if I was accused of a major crime.


If you are a foreigner it is always in other country a good idea to have a copy of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of 1963 by hand:


Quote:
Article 36
1.With a view to facilitating the exercise of consular functions relating to nationals of the sending State:
(a) consular officers shall be free to communicate with nationals of the sending State and to have
access to them. Nationals of the sending State shall have the same freedom with respect to
communication with and access to consular officers of the sending State;
(b) if he so requests, the competent authorities of the receiving State shall, without delay, inform the
consular post of the sending State if, within its consular district, a national of that State is arrested or
committed to prison or to custody pending trial or is detained in any other manner. Any communication
addressed to the consular post by the person arrested, in prison, custody or detention shall be forwarded
by the said authorities without delay. The said authorities shall inform the person concerned without
delay of his rights under this subparagraph;
(c) consular officers shall have the right to visit a national of the sending State who is in prison,
custody or detention, to converse and correspond with him and to arrange for his legal representation.
They shall also have the right to visit any national of the sending State who is in prison, custody or
detention in their district in pursuance of a judgement. Nevertheless, consular officers shall refrain from
taking action on behalf of a national who is in prison, custody or detention if he expressly opposes such
action.


http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instru ... 2_1963.pdf

Referring to this convention can avoid minor trouble quite easily.


Thanks Dussel. After reading Article 20, clause 3, of the constitution of India, I found out that I do indeed have the right against self-incrimination.

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitut ... ffenses.7D



MissConstrue
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05 Apr 2009, 1:51 pm

No wonder I have trust issues with authority.

I think some of them get a thrill when it comes to abuse in power.


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Dussel
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05 Apr 2009, 2:24 pm

TallyMan wrote:
^ Quoting the law to police officers doesn't generally have a positive effect. They are more likely to be belligerent and prolong your unpleasant experience with them.


It helps sometime: I was in some trouble in the US - drinking a bottle of beer in the public. So I told the police man I want to speak with the German Embassy or if this is not possible I will lock a protest with the Department of State in writing. So he told me to go ...

This works only for minor offences: If it would be something more serious, this would be different. It also does not work within the EU for EU-citizen.



ProfessorX
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05 Apr 2009, 2:33 pm

skysaw, I'll admit I used to make up false things as a child but, that was when I was just 5yrs of age.Anyways, due to my Samura-like code of honor or something along those lines, I've always chose to say things honest and not create lies that would otherwise come back to haunt me. Still, hearing this makes me feel as, if acting & behaving in a Trusting manner can be seen as criminal. This tends to me appear very odd if not downright disheartening.. :(


ProfessorX :o :?



theQuail
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05 Apr 2009, 2:35 pm

Wow, the British police. Not that other places don't have similar problems with stupid police actions taken just to fulfil quotas, but "theft by finding"?
I have seen some particularly bad examples of journalism from British tabloids in articles posted in this subforum, though. Hopefully they were exaggerating?

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Concenik
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11 Apr 2009, 11:16 am

I don't think this was about 'performance statistics' - there's a drive to complete an as comprehensive DNA database as possible. One can only speculate as to why *shrugs*

The police also took my DNA in the UK and I had no charges levied against me. I've also heard of lots of cases of this and met people who have experienced this too, that are not criminal whatsoever, either. The C*ntstabularies are particularly aggressive in this regard in the NW of England.

It's quite a bad sign imo :lol:



EnglishLulu
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11 Apr 2009, 2:39 pm

I witnessed a shooting outside my apartment in Manchester a few years ago, and stupidly phoned the police.

A uniformed officer came the same night and took a brief statement from me, which she wrote in a notebook.

The plain clothes detective came the next day to write out a statement in full. When she arrived, she asked whether I rented or owned my apartment, and I thought she was just making small talk or something, and I told her that I was renting but in the process of buying my flat, as I liked where I lived, it was a really friendly community (apart from shootings!). But then her mobile rang and she went into my hallway, but I could hear her talking to the person at the other end of the call, and she told them that I was currently renting but in the process of buying, and didn't want to move. :?

So when she came back into my sitting room, I asked her what she meant by telling someone that I didn't want to move. She explained that if the case went to court I might have to go into witness protection. And so I said, well, won't if I don't want to go into witness protection and change my name and move house and all that? And she said that I had given a statement, so they could ask for a witness summons, and if I refused to attend court, then I could/would be arrested and potentially imprisoned for contempt of court! 8O

Luckily, I never heard anything again. So they obviously didn't catch the guys involved in the shooting. Phew!

But I swear, if anything like that ever happens again when I'm around, I'm going to be like those three little monkeys, see no evil, hear no evil, say no evil. Which is sad, really, because I thought I was doing my civic duty, reporting a crime, but it could potentially have put me in danger and turned my life upside down.



11 Apr 2009, 3:36 pm

The witness protection is for them to protect you from the shooters because they don't know the shooters saw you so they could come back and try and kill you so you can't testify against them. About attending court, you have to go. Always bugs me when aspies try and get off. I wouldn't use my ADD or AS or my anxiety to get off. That be up for the judge to decide because of my short attention span and my problems with note taking and I can't listen for long periods of the time. One of my aspie friends got off because of his hearing aid. He didn't decide he didn't want to go, they decided he wasn't fit to do jury duty because of his hearing loss. My bf had to do jury duty once but once he got there, they said he could leave because there was too many people in the court room and when there was no more seating, they sent the rest home and my bf was one of them. They had asked too many people to serve jury duty. But in this case, your case was about being a witness so it was important for them to have you testify against the shooters if they are caught.


I wonder if the prison thing was just a threat so you would go if the shooters were caught because it was so important for them to find them guilty so they can sentence them.



Fintan29
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11 Apr 2009, 7:49 pm

I don't even get how this was wrong. That wasn't just fair. :roll: