Heading to a national park? Now you can pack heat

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Dox47
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22 May 2009, 3:52 am

MattShizzle wrote:

This is one of the reasons I'm ashamed to be American - how easy it is to have guns including ones only the military should have. From my readings for a politician to propose allowing civilians to carry handguns in most European countries would be about as popular as lowering the age of sexual consent to 2. I don't want to live in a society where people can carry guns in public.

Are you an expert on firearms? I happen to be, so if you're not, I don't suggest that you open this particular can of worms outside of PPR, you're on the record several times as wanting the 2nd Amendment repealed, leave it at that.

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22 May 2009, 5:06 pm

There is a word for those who do not support the Constitution, Treason.

A Right is not a permission, it is above and beyond the range of law.

Permissions are what are granted to the Government, the States, limited, with all else being reserved to the people.

Europe needs you.

Coadunate
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22 May 2009, 7:31 pm

MattShizzle wrote:

Quote:

That is one of the reason why I hate traveling. I would never go to Europe or Aruba or Mexico or anywhere else. I don’t feel safe if I can’t protect myself. The government has no right to treat its citizens like they were two years old. Here is what happened recently in the same part of the state where I live:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD98AUJ5O0

All I can say is if anyone or anything I don’t know managed to barge in to where I sleep they would get a big surprise. That goes double for the woods in some park.

Here is a history lesson for you:

http://www.foundingfathers.info/stories/gadsden.html

Raptor
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23 May 2009, 4:18 am

MattShizzle wrote;

Quote:

This is crazy. I really wish they'd repeal the 2nd amendment.

Apparently you don’t believe in the constitution of the United States. If one of the amendments can be repealed then any or all of them can be.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
Duh!

Quote:

If you’re ashamed to be an American then LEAVE and don't come back!.
To hell with how the Europeans do things! My ancestors didn’t leave Europe because it was the paradise you make it out to be.
:roll:

MattShizzle
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23 May 2009, 8:19 am

Europe's different from how it was then. If I could afford to I would - mainly because of right wing zealots like some in this thread.

CanyonWind
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23 May 2009, 12:52 pm

No need to pack iron in the national parks. You can always reason with a grizzly, just like you can reason with a criminal.

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KnightGhost
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23 May 2009, 1:04 pm

MattShizzle wrote:

The end result of which is that only the criminals have guns... and they aren't shy about using them. Ireland and the UK are some of the most dangerous places to walk simply because people are not allowed to defend themselves. That last total ban led to a crime increase of 300%. Australia is in the middle of a similar situation and is seriously debating about banning knives next.

You are fully entitled to your opinion, but if you wish to debate then logic and facts would present a more effective argument than personal feeling.

As for moving to Europe, it is quite easy. Apply for a job there. They have open borders and often assist with moving costs.

Dox47
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23 May 2009, 8:00 pm

MattShizzle wrote:

Europe's different from how it was then. If I could afford to I would - mainly because of right wing zealots like some in this thread.

I'd be careful throwing around the Z word, especially with people you obviously don't know. I'm a strong supporter of gay rights and abortion rights, as well as quite a few other causes dear to the left and antithetical to the right. You, on the other hand, have among other things advocated government seizure of businesses and the imprisonment of their owners because you don't agree with how their owners choose to run them. As said, you don't seem to be in any position to either argue this rationally or claim some sort of moral high ground to pass judgment, so I strongly suggest you let it go.

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twoshots
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23 May 2009, 8:14 pm

Raptor wrote:

Apparently you don’t believe in the constitution of the United States. If one of the amendments can be repealed then any or all of them can be.

As was the 18th Amendment, God bless.

I'm not really sure I see the argument you're making here. It's one thing to say we shouldn't repeal the amendment, but it's quite another to say we shouldn't use those powers to amend the constitution that are granted by the constitution on the basis that it undermines the whole thing.

Concisely: WTF?

KnightGhost wrote:

Ireland and the UK are some of the most dangerous places to walk simply because people are not allowed to defend themselves.

You're cherry picking. Murder rates are much lower in both Ireland and the UK, and likewise the crime rates in Western and Northern Europe are markedly lower than the United States. This is probably a demographic thing, I'd wager, but implying that the US is safer than Europe (for guns or otherwise) is wrongheaded.

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MattShizzle
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23 May 2009, 8:54 pm

I was waiting for someone to bring that up - I'd like to see a comparison in murder rates between the US and Western European countries, Australia and Japan. You might also want to compare murder rates in states with stronger gun control, such as Vermont, Massachusettes, etc with those with little like Alabama, Texas, etc. Then there's accidental deaths, too.

There's also too many nuts that will shoot at someone who wanders on their property, etc.

twoshots
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23 May 2009, 9:01 pm

MattShizzle wrote:

I have to bring up the good old Garden State - tight gun restrictions, low gun ownership in the urban areas, but several of the most dangerous cities in the country.

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Coadunate
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23 May 2009, 9:54 pm

Dox47 wrote:

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You, on the other hand, have among other things advocated government seizure of businesses and the imprisonment of their owners because you don't agree with how their owners choose to run them.

I’m curious about your opinion. Do you believe that the owner or CEO of a business has the right to deliberately lose money? Let me be clear; I’m not talking about losing money due to stupid mistakes. Do you think the owner or CEO of a business has the right to deliberately run that business into bankruptcy?

Dox47
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24 May 2009, 1:47 am

Coadunate wrote:

An owner yes, a CEO maybe, but it would probably violate their contract. The post of Mattshizzle's that I was referring to actually was about employer policies on what their workers do outside of work, and had nothing to do with fiduciary misconduct, I was just observing the rule against cross-posting since enforcement of the rules is so arbitrary around here. But, to further answer your question, I view it as a question of property rights, if you own the business it's yours to run as you please, plenty of businesses lose money without even trying, and I don't see how malice could be distinguished from simple incompetence unless it was really obvious, as anyone who's every tried to sue for fiduciary malfeasance can tell you.

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Dox47
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24 May 2009, 2:00 am

twoshots wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

I have to bring up the good old Garden State - tight gun restrictions, low gun ownership in the urban areas, but several of the most dangerous cities in the country.

Vermont is one of the only states to allow concealed carry of a handgun without a permit, that style of law is actually known as "Vermont Carry", so I'm not sure what validity the state of Vermont has to the discussion at hand. To add to Twoshots's point, I mention Chicago, NYC, LA and Washington DC, all cities with incredibly strict gun control that hardly rate as safe, as compared to my own Seattle where anyone who isn't disqualified can receive a carry permit and yet we don't suffer much violence. Internationally, the countries with the worst crime rates, such as Mexico, Columbia and Russia all have very strict controls on civilian gun ownership, if they allow it at all, so clearly gun laws and violent crime don't directly correlate. My personal theory says it's the culture, that I could air-drop a crate of AKs into downtown Tokyo and nothing bad would happen, where as disarming all of Africa would simply mean less shootings and more machete-ings, which is how it is there anyway. Tribalism/Nationalism/Gangsterism etc, those are the causes of the violence and minimizing their influence would save many more lives than any amount of gun control would.

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Coadunate
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24 May 2009, 4:09 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Quote:

But, to further answer your question, I view it as a question of property rights, if you own the business it's yours to run as you please, plenty of businesses lose money without even trying, and I don't see how malice could be distinguished from simple incompetence unless it was really obvious, as anyone who's every tried to sue for fiduciary malfeasance can tell you.

Malice:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/malice

I think you misunderstood me. When I said “Do you believe that the owner or CEO of a business has the right to deliberately lose money?” I was not referring to a desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another. Just because an owner or CEO deliberately bankrupts a company does not necessarily mean that he has a deep-seated often unexplainable desire to see another suffer. If I get in my truck and deliberately drive without any concern for the health and well being of myself or others just because I feel like it or that it feels good or for that matter I might even be playing solitaire on my laptop while driving and I run one or two people down doesn’t necessarily mean that I was malicious. It simply means that I don’t give a rat’s a.. about anyone. Do you think I have the right to do that?
Furthermore don’t think such people do not exist. I happen to know several of them.

twoshots
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24 May 2009, 6:40 pm

Dox47 wrote:

To add to Twoshots's point, I mention Chicago, NYC, LA and Washington DC, all cities with incredibly strict gun control that hardly rate as safe, as compared to my own Seattle where anyone who isn't disqualified can receive a carry permit and yet we don't suffer much violence.

Hey there now. Seattle is worse than NYC in every category but murder and robbery, according to here, and NYC ain't too much worse in those two.

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